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July 30

"C.C." in Dutch - is this an abbreviation for "traditional"?

Seeing certain things credited to "C.C." in a context where usually there's a last name - am I correct in assuming this is an abbreviation of a Dutch phrase for "traditional" or "anonymous"? Not really the sort of thing Google Translate can help with, but I'm sure a reasonably-intelligent native speaker would know. Thanks! JGD 121 (talk) 01:14, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It is not uncommon to see a piece signed by just the initials of the name of its author – often regular contributors such as editors of a periodical. So "C.C." may stand for "Caja Cazemier" or any other person with these initials who, for whatever reason, does not want to present their name prominently in the context. Citations of occurrences might help in figuring out the intention behind the abbreviation. --Lambiam 07:49, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing obvious to this native Dutch speaker. The dictionary mentions several meanings for the abbreviation CC, but none that make sense here. So, most likely these are initials: Cees Cats, Carola Cruquius, Carel Cant, ... Just making up these combinations. C is rare in ordinary Dutch writing (except in the ch digraph), but much more common in names. PiusImpavidus (talk) 08:38, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Certain things credited to "C.C." ? Corcal Cadecsser. Like in: Attributed to Creative Commons ? --Askedonty (talk) 22:16, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In this instance, it's a list of songs on a compilation. All song titles are in Dutch, and "C.C." is the only attribution that's repeated. JGD 121 (talk) 15:36, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing obvious at nl:Lijst van afkortingen in het Nederlands. Mathglot (talk) 18:43, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe a reference to an older collection of public domain songs? Corpus cantionum, or something like that, although I wouldn't expect a collection of Dutch songs to have a Latin title. Or a collection of traditional songs compiled by somebody with the initials CC. Anyway, if it's a reference to an older collection, I'd expect an explanation in a foreword or something like that. PiusImpavidus (talk) 07:55, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Would you mind identifying that compilation (title, catalogue number, ...)? It might help if we could look it up ourselves. --Wrongfilter (talk) 08:03, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is "copyright control". It means that copyright is retained by the writer and not assigned to a third party. It is used to indicate that a work/recording is self-published, or in lieu of there being a known publisher. --Viennese Waltz 08:07, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Grammar doubt from Black Widow (2021 film)

Natasha speaks about her mother:

Natasha: I thought about her every day of my life. Whether or not I admitted it to myself, I did.

What does "it" and "did" refer to? Rizosome (talk) 07:37, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Both refer to Natasha's thinking about her mother every day of her life. So, in full,

Whether or not I admitted my thinking about my mother every day of my life to myself, I did think about my mother every day of my life.

--Lambiam 07:54, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In more normal English: Whether or not I admitted to myself that I thought about my mother every day of my life ... --Tamfang (talk) 19:00, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

More normal than Lambiam's expansion, duh. —Tamfang (talk) 19:28, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The original was normal English. --184.144.99.72 (talk) 19:45, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The original was fine as-is, and the other variations posted here work too. The question is, does the OP understand it now? And what are the odds of the OP bothering to follow up here? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:36, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If you're that cynical about our OPs, time to take a break. Or a hike. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:30, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not OPs in general, this one in particular: Asks a question, almost never acknowledges responses, moves on to the next question. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:46, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I thought about Rizosome every day of my life. Whether or not I admitted it to myself, I did! Martinevans123 (talk) 19:38, 1 August 2021 (UTC) [reply]

Since he was sent from the Cubs to the Evil Empire, I've thought about Rizzo some. :( ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:54, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Would you be more likely to utter Lambiam's sentence than mine? —Tamfang (talk) 00:36, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Tamfang:, I would not use your wording. I would use Natasha's wording. (native speaker). Mathglot (talk) 18:46, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The purpose of these reformulations was to answer the question and explain (an aspect of) Natasha's wording, not to improve on it. The only relevant criterion is whether these reformulations do a good job in helping explain what it and did refer to. --Lambiam 07:13, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Does your native language not have analogous constructions? --Tamfang (talk) 18:59, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia articles Ellipsis (linguistics) and Pro-verb for similar constructions... AnonMoos (talk) 21:30, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The pronoun drops of the English pro-verb constructions are not found in most other languages. For example, in French one would say, "Que je l'aie admis ou non, je l'ai fait", and in German, "Ob ich es mir zugegeben habe oder nicht, ich habe es getan". But, unlike many other languages, English does not have general pro-drop – hence the use of it in the sentence. --Lambiam 08:46, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The German version is very non-idiomatic, to the degree that I'd call it wrong. "Auch wenn ich es nicht zugeben wollte" or "Auch wenn ich es mir nicht eingestehen wollte" would be better (the first is a lower register, the second more formal). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:40, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Trans linguists are people too, you know." Martinevans123 (talk) 19:41, 1 August 2021 (UTC) [reply]

@Baseball Bugs: I can understand now.

Resolved

Rizosome (talk) 06:05, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

July 31

can anyone help with this chinese sentence?

Hi all, in my hsk 4 book, I have a sentence, 看来，没有想的那么容易。Both google translate and the youtube source, [1] tell me, this translates as "It seems that it is not as easy as thought." How does the Chinese produce this meaning? IBE (talk) 01:32, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Is it the comparison use of meiyou?? IBE (talk) 02:26, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If I attempted a literalish gloss, I'd say "it seems, it doesn't have the easiness of the thought thing". So as I interpret it, basically the answer to your question is yes. Henry ^Flower 20:33, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Fellow Chinese learner here. From what I understand, the relevant pattern must be "没有 X 那么 Y", 'not as Y as X' (or: 'doesn't do Y as much as X does'), where X is "想的", 'what [I] thought'. Does that help understanding it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:12, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Polish nicknames

Hi,

I used to have many Polish colleagues and I've noticed that all of them have a specific nickame which is quite different to their name but each name has always the same nickname. For example, every Malgozata was Gosha (not sure about the spelling), every Jakub was Kuba, and so on. Just like in English where every Robert is Bob and every Richard is Dick. I couldn't see anything about in Polish name. Should it be added? Our should an article Polish nicknames be created? Ericdec85 (talk) 13:08, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Either way, you need to find some reliable sources. Here is a start. Alansplodge (talk) 18:44, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

According to Wiktionary, the diminutives of Małgorzata (note the spelling) are Małgosia, Gosia, and Gośka. The ⟨ś⟩ corresponds to the IPA phoneme /ɕ/, sounding like the ⟨sh⟩ of "sheep" spoken by someone while holding their tongue as if to say "teep". --Lambiam 19:43, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Any idea where "Stosh" comes from? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:51, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Probably an abbreviation of Stanisław - Staś. 93.136.108.147 (talk) 03:28, 2 August 2021 (UTC) (I'm not Polish)[reply]

Wiktionary presents Staś as a diminutive of Stanisław. --Lambiam 07:01, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That makes sense, and it explains why Stan Mikita was called "Stosh". Thank you! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:26, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: some Roberts are Robbies and some Richards are Ritchies (... or even Ringos!) Martinevans123 (talk) 07:49, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, we don't seem to have an article or list of English nicknames either. In any case, I can't think of a reliable source for a list of Polish nicknames. All I can find are parenting sites with very short lists of the currently popular names and their diminutives (like this one). — Kpalion^(talk) 10:11, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I learned a new term today: Hypocorism, which seems to be a fancy way of saying "nickname". There is also a Category:Hypocorisms which has a lot of entries. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:45, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, occasionally hypocrisms assume the status of real names. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:50, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Strictly speaking, a hypocorism is a type of nickname, one where the name is meant to indicate a level of affection or closeness. If you call your loved one "Honey-Bunny", that's a hypocorism. If you call them "Sue" or "Steve" (for Susan or Steven), that's just usually just a nickname. --Jayron 32 16:49, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See also diminutive for another type of nickname; in your example "Susie" or "Stevie". Alansplodge (talk) 18:06, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Or Splodgie, of course. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:59, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

:-) Alansplodge (talk) 21:00, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oh the guys you seat near always require spongies. You've heard about Philip Morris ? --Askedonty (talk) 20:16, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The American cigarette manufacturer?? Do tell... Martinevans123 (talk) 22:14, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

August 3

Gämlä stän

Once when I was in Stockholm, Sweden, I spotted a group of tourists and overhead one say to another, in English, "Let's go to Gamla stan." Only he pronounced the name more like "[ˈɡæːmːlæ ˈstæːn]" instead of the correct pronunciation "[ˈɡâmːla ˈstɑːn]" (I had to copy-paste the IPA symbols from the Swedish IPA help page). If this were the Finnish Wikipedia I'd write that he pronounced the name as "Gämlä stän". In an English-speaking context, how could I write the way he pronounced the name without resorting to IPA? JIP | Talk 15:30, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That confused me for a while, as in Swedish G before ä is soft. DuncanHill (talk) 12:51, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In English, /æ/ is invariably written as "a". It's the "cat-hat-mat" vowel. While many other vowel sounds could be written with different letters, under nearly all English dialects, /æ/ is just "a". Some other sounds associated with "a", such as /ɑ/, could also be "o", i.e. the homophones (in some dialects) "balm" and "bomb". --Jayron 32 18:15, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

But I wanted to know how to illustrate the difference between that tourist's pronunciation of "Gamla stan" and the correct one. If I just wrote "He pronounced it Gamla stan instead of Gamla stan", no one will understand me. If I wrote "He pronounced it Gamla stan instead of Gomlo Ston" (or something), people would think I had the wrong pronuciation. JIP | Talk 18:25, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think that many, if not most, native English speakers would understand "He pronounced Gamla stan with short a's rather than long a's." Deor (talk) 18:44, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Among ordinary English speakers without special linguistic training, "long a" almost always means [eɪ]. You can use the Lexical set keywords... AnonMoos (talk) 20:43, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'd just say he pronounced the vowels as if the name was in English, or to be more explicit, "He pronounced all three vowels as short A's, as if the name was in English." --184.144.99.72 (talk) 22:13, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Part of the problem is that, for many dialects of English, several of those "a" vowels are not recognized or used. Except in some of the antipodean varieties, the /â/ and /a/ phonemes aren't used. See English phonology#Vowels. --Jayron 32 12:51, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You touch on a reason I have to regret calling myself Tamfang. —Tamfang (talk) 02:22, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand, can you clarify? JIP | Talk 03:28, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I assume he means that most English speakers will pronounce his user name like the English words "tram-fang" (but without the "r"), though he has a different pronunciation in mind... AnonMoos (talk) 08:06, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am ignorant of Tolkien's works, so I took it to be pronounced as tam to rhyme with bam, cam, dam, fam, gam, ham, jam, lam, ma'am, 'Nam, Pam, ram, Sam, Spam, wham or yam; and fang to rhyme with bang, dang, gang, hang, pang, rang, sang or tang. Now I'm curious as to what the right pronunciation is. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:27, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Depends on the dialect; different varieties of English will divide up the various "a" vowels very differently. See, for example, the Trap–bath split, in some varieties of English those two words use the same vowel sound (/æ/) and in some, the "bath" class of words are pronounced with the /ɑ/ sound, as is found in words like "palm". --Jayron 32 12:38, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Above: (i) "[ˈɡæːmːlæ ˈstæːn]"; (ii) the comment "I'd just say he pronounced the vowels as if the name was in English". Oh really? Englishes differ, but [æː] is odd at best, and both [mː] and word-final [æ] are very odd. Now, if the [perhaps anglophone] speaker had instead said [ˈgæmlə ˈstæn], I might say that he pronounced gamla to rhyme with the "Tamla" of Tamla Motown, and stan as in the boys' name. -- Hoary (talk) 12:47, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The most traditional ways to indicate these vowel quality distinctions in English seem to be to insert R, H, and W here and there, or to use the words "long", "short", "hard", and "soft". You can choose any of these at random; it doesn't really matter, because the reader is going to guess at random what you might have meant. The only way I know of that actually works reliably and is widely understood is to say what it rhymes with, like "panda's hand". --Amble (talk) 18:10, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Rhymes with "wonderland"? --Lambiam 21:15, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I thought that was the unfortunate Ponda's hand. --Amble (talk) 19:59, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

August 4

Variety-speak

This Variety magazine review of I Walk Alone states "Lancaster belts over his assignment ..." What the heck does "belts over" mean? Clarityfiend (talk) 04:05, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps to move or act in a speedy, vigorous, or violent manner? --2603:6081:1C00:1187:B966:D27C:3753:543A (talk) 06:25, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe a variation of "knocks/belts it out of the park", meaning "handily successful". --Khajidha (talk) 00:11, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

French translation requested.

Could any able French reader offer a translation of the text in the newspaper report shown in this image? Many thanks for your time. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:52, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"For about the last three months, a Dutch painter named Mr. Van Gogh, who is the brother of the well-like agent from the Goupil company, resided in Auvers-sur-Oise, in a hotel next to city hall.

Since his arrival, Mr. Van Gogh worked feverishly and led what appeared to have been an uneventful life.

On Sunday evening, around seven, Mr. Van Gogh left the hotel, heading towards the castle, and at nine, he came back with a smile on his face and completely calm, even though his stomach had been punctured by a gunshot. Mr. Van Gogh had attempted suicide.

- Am I spitting blood? he asked while keeping absolutely calm.

- No, came the answer.

- Well, I missed myself again.

Indeed, it was the second time that he had apparently attempted to end his life.

In spite of the professional and devoted care provided by Drs. Mazery and Gachet, who were summoned quickly, Mr. Van Gogh died on Tuesday at one p.m. after enduring great pain.

Mr. Van Gogh was a protestant. His funeral took place on Wednesday, at three o'clock.

His brother and Dr. Gachet, a friend of the deceased who gave a deeply emotional eulogy, were the chief mourners. Many artists came from Paris, including Messrs. Pisaro (sic), Los Kios and Tom, and the entire artistic community of Auvers-sur-Oise, which is quite numerous at this time, wanted to pay their last respects to this man defeated by his art and by life, who was stranded in this blond and sunny hollow, where he had seemingly come to seek his final rest." Xuxl (talk) 15:35, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much, Xuxl. It's quite moving. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:40, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, nicely worded translation. Rather than "Dutch", it says he's "of Dutch origin". --184.144.99.72 (talk) 19:49, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

More idiomatic: "Since about three months, ...". Obviously, "well-like" above is a typo for "well-liked". I think French "plaine" correspond to English "plain": "who ended up in the middle of this blond and sun-lit plain". --Lambiam 21:04, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Since about three months..." would not be correct English. --Viennese Waltz 21:28, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect "plaine blonde et ensoleille" might be more usually rendered as "sunlit golden plain", as blonde is usually only for hair in English. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:40, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, one can imagine a plain blonde, but not a blonde plain. DuncanHill (talk) 21:43, 4 August 2021 (UTC) [reply]

**groan** Most Likely You Go Your Way and I'll Go Mine. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:20, 4 August 2021 (UTC) [reply]

Regrettably, the only part that prompted this request was "l'estomache troué par une balle de revolver." The discussion in question may be found at Talk:Vincent van Gogh#‎Bullet wound: chest or abdomen? But having the entire translation is very useful. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:24, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Appreciate the help. I think English is unique in its use of blonde for only hair; Mexican poet Manuel Gutiérrez Nájera, according to [2], loosely translated the similar phrase "la plaine blonde" by François Coppée as "rubios trigales de espigas doradas" ("blonde fields of golden ears [of wheat]"). Hexcodes (talk) 03:55, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This translator [3] used "sun-blanched plain." Hexcodes (talk) 04:02, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Um, "plaine" can be "hollow"? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:57, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the interpretation should be made in the context of the actual local topography. Is Auvers-sur-Oise and its surrounds suggestive of a plain or a hollow? My impression from photographs is that the latter may indeed be more applicable. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.62.68 (talk) 18:28, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well I guess we don't know who wrote that column or where he lived. I was probably assuming he didn't need photographs. But who knows. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:09, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I thought you meant that "plaine" can mean "hollow." The report appeared in the local paper of the region, headquartered in nearby Beaumont-sur-Oise, so I agree that the columnist was probably familiar with the locality. My available French dictionaries do not support "hollow", and although the town seems from its article's photos to be in a steep-sided valley, van Gogh's paintings of the area often show flatter countryside with fields of cereal crops, consistent with "plain." {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.62.68 (talk) 03:48, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Ça plaine pour moi". Martinevans123 (talk) 14:31, 6 August 2021 (UTC) [reply]

Having a relatively flat plain with a country side of cereal crops set inside a steep-sided valley are not mutually exclusive. The Shenandoah Valley in Virginia would be described exactly like that. It's certainly a plain on the valley floor, but it is surrounded by the Blue Ridge Mountains on one side and Massanutten Mountain Ridge on the other. I'm not as familiar with the geography of France as I am of Virginia, but being in a valley and being on a plain are not mutually exclusive situations. --Jayron 32 16:47, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

August 6

How to fix this tiny sentence?

Sentence: At the direction of Michael, his man destroyed the house of Terry, who driven his car without permission, and loot Terry's cash, hacked Terry's email.

How to phrase this sentence grammatical? I tried my best but annoyed due to placement of "and" word Rizosome (talk) 14:15, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Rizosome: Before making any suggestions, what exactly is going on? I would exercise caution with using pronouns with just this sentence as context, as there are three different people that he could refer to. It sounds like Terry drove Michael's car without permission, and Michael ordered someone to destroy Terry's house, loot his cash, and hack his email. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 14:25, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Do reader can understand money and email belong to Terry from your sentence?: Terry drove Michael's car without permission, and Michael ordered someone to destroy Terry's house, loot his cash, and hack his email. Rizosome (talk) 14:49, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's impossible to "fix" this sentence without knowing who did what to whom and when. You'd need to break it down into a chronological set of simple statements, in a list. A single sentence might then be reconstructed? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:00, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I read it as; Terry drove Michael's car. As a result, Michael gave the order to destroy Terry's house, loot Terry's cash, and hack Terry's email. Michael's man carried out Michael's order.Dja1979 (talk) 18:39, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It might also help if you told us where this came from. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:10, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 174: / Line 174: @@
 :It's impossible to "fix" this sentence without knowing who did what to whom and when. You'd need to break it down into a chronological set of simple statements, in a list. A single sentence might then be reconstructed? [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 15:00, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
+::I read it as; Terry drove Michael's car. As a result, Michael gave the order to destroy Terry's house, loot Terry's cash, and hack Terry's email. Michael's man carried out Michael's order.[[User:Dja1979|Dja1979]] ([[User talk:Dja1979|talk]]) 18:39, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
 :It might also help if you told us where this came from. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 18:10, 6 August 2021 (UTC)