Talk:Beyoncé

RfC: Should the subject of this article be defined as a songwriter in the lead?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Following the last RfC in regards to the infobox, here is a new one in regards to the lead. The last RfC pertaining to the lead was held four months ago, and following further developments and extensive discussions, here is a new (and hopefully final) one. Israell (talk) 17:46, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

!Votes

• Yes - Citing WP:V, it is, as demonstrated in previous discussions, a very well and documented fact Beyoncé Knowles was credited as a writer for most of the Destiny's Child songs and nearly all of her own solo songs. She has 346 officially registered songwriting credits on ASCAP, she discussed her songwriting process in interviews, and some of her music partners confirmed she does indeed co-write songs. All of these elements suffice to establish her as a songwriter, a regular as opposed to only an occasional or very occasional songwriter. Next to singing, songwriting is her main profession (EDIT: MOS:FIRST). Yes, there have been speculations in regards to her songwriting. Those speculations are discussed in the article but do not trump the aforesaid points. And Beyoncé was recognized in the industry as a songwriter, receiving accolades and awards for it. Israell (talk) 17:46, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
• (the following is copied from the infobox RfC with 1 edit for relevancy bc I don't want to write a whole new thing) Yes because she is credited as a songwriter on many songs, in awards, in articles, etc. People may have criticised her wanting to be credited as a songwriter, or the extent to which she's a songwriter, but dang if she's co-written a bunch of songs to any extent and gotten paid for them, then she's a professional songwriter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xurizuri (talk • contribs) 01:13, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

• No, per extensive debate on the previous RfC. I'm fine with the infobox but not for the lead, see MOS:FIRST. Bluesatellite (talk) 02:49, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

The last RfC is about the infobox. It is explicitly not about anything in the text of the lead. Xurizuri (talk) 02:57, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

No, this last RfC I mean. Bluesatellite (talk) 03:02, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

• Yes. I’ve already made my stance clear on this subject. Do I look at her as a song writer? No. But this isn’t about me. It isn’t about my feelings. It’s about the sources and sticking to them, per WP:STICKTOSOURCE. If more than one reliable source cites that she is a songwriter, then she is what she is. TruthGuardians (talk) 23:47, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

• @TruthGuardian: Care to see my arguments above? HĐ (talk) 16:06, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

• Yes. She collaborates with many others in songwriting but it's songwriting nonetheless. Binksternet (talk) 16:11, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

• No songwriter is not what Beyonce is known for, and per the previous RfC as Bluesatellite cited as above. I am fine with songwriter being kept in the infobox, but not for the lead sentence, HĐ (talk) 08:49, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Once again, Beyoncé is known for singing songs that she writes (co-writes to be exact) for the most part; nearly all her solo songs + most of the Destiny's Child songs. Songwriting is her main profession next to singing, and Beyoncé received prestigious awards and mentions for her songwriting—346 credits at that! Beyoncé is therefore known for songwriting, and that's undeniable and well-documented. The article lists all the required sources, confirmations she co-writes and also co-produces her songs. And it's par for the course on Wikipedia for recording artists who write (write or co-write) their material to be defined as songwriters in the lead of their respective articles. Israell (talk) 21:08, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
    • @Israell: "known for singing songs that she writes" is undue weight; I have yet to see any widespread recognition of that. Even though she has writing credits for over 300 songs, she is first and foremost a singer (or recording artist) and performer, and your claim that "songwriting is her next profession next to singing" is either original research or misinterpretation of the existing literature. I can even say Taylor Swift is an app developer because she won an Emmy for a mobile app ([1]); or that she is a director because she has directed a dozen of her videos and even won "Best Direction" at the VMAs (https://www.insider.com/vmas-taylor-swift-best-director-the-man-first-female-artist-2020-8 ]). I am for including songwriter in the infobox, but in the lead, it is a big no. Your claim that she is known as a songwriter is undue weight, and your cherry-picked statements collected from certain sources do not help either. Please see this discussion which just ended in August 2020 to see the rationale. HĐ (talk) 13:10, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

• Yes - As others have alluded to, it all boils down to whether reliable sources consider Beyonce to be a songwriter (per WP:DEFINING, a defining characteristic is one that has been commonly and consistently attributed to the subject in reliable sources), and songwriting has certainly been attributed to Beyonce in reliable sources. This has been the case right from the beginning of her career and until recent months Bgkc4444 (talk) 11:17, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

• @Bgkc4444: See my arguments above. HĐ (talk) 13:10, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

• Probably not - Industry awards are not independent or appropriate sources for verifying a defining characteristic of a performer. As a defining characteristic, there is too much documented doubt about the extent of her role as a songwriter in Beyoncé#Songwriting credits, particularly from this journalist who recounted conflicting testimonials from her collaborators and acknowledged "the very real claims of theft and plagiarism that have plagued her career for years". But I would rather hear what uninvolved editors have to say about this, rather than us same old voices from past discussions here. isento (talk) 12:54, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Firstly, if one considers a random songwriter - who has never even worked with Beyonce before - told by a Reddit user an unsubstantiated (and false) claim about Beyonce's songwriting who then responds to that "fact" as an appropriate source for Beyonce's songwriting, then certainly the professional organization of songwriters would be considered an appropriate source for Beyonce's songwriting. In my opinion, we should focus on more reliable sources, which as said before, commonly and consistently attribute songwriting to Beyonce.

Secondly, it seems that either that journalist doesn't actually know what a songwriter is, or it is original research to assert that the journalist is saying Beyonce isn't a songwriter. All the article says is that she co-writes songs and that there are two songs where she focused on writing the melody and not the lyrics. Those aren't "conflicting testimonials", and neither of those mean that she isn't a songwriter. Bgkc4444 (talk) 16:10, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Comment - There are sources claiming she is a songwriter (not necessarily claiming songwriting as one of her prominent professions), and there are sources that dismiss songwriting as one of her professions, authenticity of which has received extensive media coverage. Beyoncé IS a songwriter, and that is why "songwriter" is on her infobox; this is NOT subject to debate. The discussion is actually on whether it is a notable profession of hers or not. Therefore, I think we need to stick to the sources available (both supporting & against) instead of disregarding any source as "false" just because one personally thinks it is false. BawinV (talk) 17:56, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Not sure which comment you're referring to, but no, I'm not saying this because of a personal agenda. If the Reddit user, then no, a Reddit user isn't a reliable source. If The Sunday Independent, then firstly it is not a source that is known to be reliable and it is being used to include contentious material about a living person so it shouldn't be considered here or in the article anyway, and secondly just for the sake of responding to your point, it does not say that songwriting is not her profession, and the interpretation of the aforementioned part of the article (which says she has co-written songs and that there are two songs where she focused on writing the melody) to mean that she isn't a songwriter is incorrect. In the same way that articles saying that Taylor Swift can't sing doesn't mean that Taylor Swift shouldn't be called a singer on Wikipedia, because that is what reliable sources call her, so too articles saying that Beyonce co-writes or writes melodies (not even saying she isn't a songwriter, and again, those two points don't make someone any less of a songwriter) doesn't mean that Beyonce shouldn't be called a songwriter on Wikipedia, because that is what reliable sources call her. Bgkc4444 (talk) 18:50, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Yet again, you diverge from the actual subject of the discussion. "articles saying that Beyonce co-writes or writes melodies doesn't mean that Beyonce shouldn't be called a songwriter on Wikipedia, because that is what reliable sources call her". Please read my comment again. The discussion is on the notability of her songwriting profession, not about the authenticity of her songwriting. The discussion is on whether her songwriting is prominent enough for "songwriter" to be included in the first sentence of the article (since it is already there in the infobox). You randomly inserting Swift (which is irrelevant to the topic and thus I'm not gonna address) doesn't not add any constructive points to this talk discussion. I repeat, the discussion is NOT about whether Beyoncé is a songwriter or not (she IS a songwriter); it is on whether she is notable as a songwriter. BawinV (talk) 19:27, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

I think we're saying the same thing. Interpreting a non-reliable source which says that Beyonce co-writes or writes melodies as evidence that Beyonce isn't an authentic songwriter does not equate to a determination of whether Beyonce is a notable songwriter or not. And bringing a comparable case not directed at you is not whataboutism. Bgkc4444 (talk) 19:53, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

What would really help is an independent report or coverage on her songwriting, something in-depth about what she does, her process, an analysis, etc. Not some passing flattering mention, like this, what Bgkc4444 cited earlier, but which misleadingly says Beyonce wrote "Through with Love", for instance, when in reality she is one of five writers credited there. She's obviously iconic enough and been around long enough to seem to warrant better investigation or reportage from journalists, which I would love nothing more for it to exist so this issue can be quashed in either direction and we could give readers a better account. But nothing like that is really cited or discussed in the article, or seems to exist online. It's mostly just some accolades, primary-source testimonials of dubious merit, and third-party doubt-raising and speculation. IMO, where there's smoke, there's fire. But more importantly, like I said before, there's not enough to substantiate the "songwriter" role's notability for a leading mention. The lead is a reflection of the body, in proportion to what reliable sources are cited as saying about certain information (MOS:LEADREL). If you open the pandora's box of her songwriting role, you'd have to mention the controversy too. So, all that remains is editorial discretion, which leads me to say no. isento (talk) 12:57, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes, as I have stated in the previous discussion, that section of the article needs improvement as it should be filled with material that explains how Beyonce writes songs using reliable sources, which is currently not the case. But I don't think we should be discussing that here because it's a separate topic from whether being songwriter is a noteworthy role of Beyonce's, as BawinV said. As said above, a characteristic should be included in the lead if it "is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having" according to WP:DEFINING, which brings the example that if a source states "Caravaggio, an Italian artist of the Baroque movement", then "Italian", "artist", and "Baroque" can be considered to be defining characteristics of Caravaggio. Similarly, that source shouldn't be discounted, because it says "The formidable singer and songwriter from Houston, Texas", therefore "singer", "songwriter", and "from Houston, Texas" can be considered to be defining characteristics of Beyonce. Bgkc4444 (talk) 13:57, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Maybe the priority then should be working on that section first, rather than this. isento (talk) 14:10, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't think anyone would contest adding "songwriter" to the lead if it's reflective of substantial discussion in the body. I know I wouldn't. isento (talk) 14:11, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Sure, but as BawinV and I said, this is a discussion about whether songwriting is a noteworthy role of Beyonce's or not, not the perception of the authenticity of Beyonce's songwriting. Bgkc4444 (talk) 18:29, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately, they are not mutually exclusive. isento (talk) 01:13, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

I've already repeatedly explained why it is a notable profession of Beyoncé's, and Bgkc4444 has just made a great point. Some do not consider Taylor Swift a real singer—does that mean she should not be defined as a singer in the lead of her article? I also did make that point earlier. There are a number of vocalists some do not consider to be real singers, some even call them non-singers, but they are still referred to as singers in the lead of their articles because they are indeed singers (on their recordings, in music videos and onstage). Singing is a notable profession of theirs whether or not they are recognized as great singers. Same thing here. Beyoncé is a singer that sings songs she wrote the vast majority of. Having co-written 346 songs, having been awarded and commended for her songwriting, songwriting is also a notable profession of hers, and that's all that matters here. Some may not regard her as a songwriter, a true songwriter or whatever the same way some may not regard J-Lo or Selena Gomez as real singers; the fact is, singing is a notable profession of theirs and songwriting is a notable profession of Beyoncé's, more notable than that of actress for that matter since Beyoncé mostly sings, and it's almost always songs that she writes and also produces which shows an even bigger involvement in the crafting of her songs. There is absolutely no proof whatsoever that even a fifth of Beyoncé's songwriting credits are stolen or bought. Writing songs is definitely a noteworthy role of Beyoncé's. Israell (talk) 02:38, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

"but which misleadingly says Beyonce wrote "Through with Love", for instance, when in reality she is one of five writers credited there" As I've already stated, it is common for people (incl. recording artists themselves) to say "wrote" instead of "co-wrote" for short. There is nothing misleading there. Besides, having a sole songwriting credit is NOT a criterion to be defined as a songwriter in the lead. As TruthGuardians put it, this is about the facts (is Beyoncé a songwriter or not, is it noteworthy enough), not one's personal opinions or feelings. And having so many songwriting credits, Beyoncé is definitely a prolific songwriter. Like numerous other recording artists on Wikipedia, it is suitable and appropriate for the term "songwriter" to be in the lead sentence of her article. It totally goes against Wikipedia standards to deny her of that just because a very small number have voiced suspicions on her songwriting, and it is all allegations. Many recording artists incl. Pharrell Williams, Robin Thicke, Katy Perry, Madonna, Patrick Leonard, Lizzo, Carrie Underwood, Miley Cyrus and so on were at some point accused of stealing music from others, there were lawsuits, controversy, but they are all still defined as songwriters. Israell (talk) 03:09, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

"Is Beyoncé a plagiarist?" (Salon, 2013): "She, more and more as the group's run went on, was involved in writing, but a more typical Destiny's Child song was their single 'Lose My Breath,' with seven credited writers ... And songwriting credits are often arbitrary -- Beyoncé was disqualified before three much less notable writers from an Academy Award nomination for the Dreamgirls song 'Listen,' which she co-wrote ... Admittedly, the singer is an easy target for plagiarism allegations due to her fame. But her fame also allows her to rephrase these allegations as curation, and to talk louder about the singular songwriting power of her mind even as it seems she's fairly well-versed in the typical 'write a word, take a third' strategy. The singer received a writing credit on her song 'Smash Into You,' a repurposed cover of a lesser-known singer's 'Smack Into You,' with little changed but two letters. For changing those two letters, Beyoncé got a larger share of the profits from the song... isento (talk) 10:42, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

We're running in circles, and as explained, this discussion is NOT about the authenticity of her songwriting but about whether or not it is noteworthy. Beyoncé has 346 songwriting credits and even more song production credits; she's therefore quite involved in the crafting of her songs and songwriting is definitely a notable profession of hers, the most notable next to singer. Beyoncé was commended and awarded for her songwriting, all the receipts are there. 346 credits! Can you prove that even a fifth of those credits were stolen? No! For argument's sake, let's suppose half those credits were stolen and there was irrefutable proof of that... 173 of those would still be legit. That would make her quite an unethical songwriter, but she'd still be a notable songwriter nonetheless. But then again, there is no proof of that at all! Beyoncé HAS definitely written songs. 'Partition' has her lyrics and she confirmed it, so do those personal songs on 'Lemonade' in which she described things about her personal life, her marriage. She wrote songs about her daughter and many other things. And any change in music may warrant a songwriting, not just the lyrics! Israell (talk) 13:47, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Actually, the discussion of this RfC is Should the subject of this article be defined as a songwriter in the lead? We are not allowed to dictate how each editor approaches this question and forms their opinion. isento (talk) 15:41, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

To quote BawinV: "The discussion is on the notability of her songwriting profession, not about the authenticity of her songwriting." Other editors and I have made a compelling point her prolific songwriting (backed with her extensive record production history which shows even more involvement in the conception of her songs) is noteworthy enough. Beyoncé's songwriting and song production credits also include all songs featured on 'Everything Is Love', an album by The Carters (a duo formed by Beyoncé and Jay-Z). Beyoncé also co-wrote four songs for her sister Solange's début ('Just Like You', 'Thinkin' About You', 'Solo Star' and 'Naïve'); are those credits stolen or bought too? Beyoncé also co-wrote some collaborations including 'Family Feud', a duet with Jay-Z (that appeared on Jay-Z's '4:44' album) and 'Walk on Water' (an Eminem song she's featured on). Israell (talk) 18:09, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Read my comment in the previous RfC's discussion: "Again, I am merely one voter. The better judgements usually prevail in these discussions. So if it is yours, feel confident other voters will just say yes. Also, fyi, a while back before the last RfC, I believe I had added such a footnote as a compromise to 'songwriter' remaining in the lead ..." isento (talk) 12:05, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

• Yes - Enough reliable source refer to Beyonce as a songwriter to justify its inclusion in the lead sentence. CBS, MTV , Billboard Britannica . She also won awards for songwriting castorbailey (talk) 22:09, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

• Yes as per above RFC - known as such. –Davey2010^Talk 22:43, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

This Billboard article [2] posted by castorbailey just above is entitled 'AWARDS - Taylor Swift & Beyonce Are Among the Top Songwriters in Grammy History: See Where They Rank'. And it is a very recent article posted two weeks ago. The article says: "Swift landed her fifth nod, more than any other female songwriter in Grammy history; Beyoncé nabbed her fourth."

From Wikipedia's article Grammy Award for Best R&B Song: "The Grammy Award for Best R&B Song (sometimes known as the R&B Songwriter's Award) has been awarded since 1969. From 1969 to 2000, it was known as the Grammy Award for Best Rhythm and Blues Song. Beyoncé has won it a record four times, while Babyface, Stevie Wonder, Bill Withers and Alicia Keys have three wins each. The award goes to the songwriter."

Beyoncé also won the Grammy Award for Song of the Year once. "This award goes to the songwriter who actually wrote the lyrics and/or melodies to the song. "Song" in this context means the song as composed, not its recording." Beyoncé's songwriting is certainly notable, her most notable profession next to being a singer. And once again, regarding that footnote, while I would not object to it, having a sole songwriting credit is not a criterion on Wikipedia. Israell (talk) 23:21, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

• @Israell: Then I can say that Taylor Swift is a director because she won a VMA for Direction. See my arguments above. HĐ (talk) 13:13, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

• Probably Yes- WP:BLPLEAD states: "The lead sentence should describe the person as he or she is commonly described in reliable sources." Referring to how Beyonce was described by reliable sources as quoted here and here.— Akhiljaxxn (talk) 06:00, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

• @Akhiljaxxn: News sources are not reliable as in-depth, scholarly analysis; per some comments by isento, whether Beyonce is a songwriter has been a controversial issue. If she is widely known as a songwriter—which is what the lead sentence is supposed to cover—then there would not be such articles as this or this or this, which proves that songwriter is not a "commonly described" profession of hers. HĐ (talk) 14:00, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

BD2412, I think it is time for this debate to come to a close. Other editors (such as Binksternet) and I in favour of inclusion of "songwriter" in the lead of the article have made very strong and valid points. Israell (talk) 22:57, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

I do not believe that this discussion is ripe for closure yet. There is still live discussion ongoing. Also, I have some thoughts on the matter, so rather than act in an administrative capacity here, I will comment on the proposal at bar. BD2412 T 01:45, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

• Yes, I think that the lede should reflect the determination of a sufficient quantum and quality of sources indicating that the subject is a songwriter. I would note that accusations of plagiarism support the proposition that the subject is a songwriter, as the plagiarist is the person being credited with authorship, not merely the performer of someone else's claimed authorship. There are some WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS arguments about what could be said about other performers, but I find them unavailing. In fact, here's mine: Byron White, whose lede says he was "an American lawyer and professional football player who served as an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States". Of course, there was no overlap in White's engagement in these activities. There are undoubtedly sports fans for whom White's judicial service is uninteresting, and legal scholars who wouldn't know or care about his playing days, but neither aspect of his biography is diminished by the significance of the other. The subject in this case has been credited as a songwriter on a substantial number of works, and only a handful of those have a reported controversy attached to them. For example, there is zero controversy over the proposition that the subject was a key participant in the songwriting for "Formation", a significant cultural milestone work with lyrics deeply personal to the subject. If all the works for which controversy has been raised were removed from the discussion, the subject would still be a credited songwriter on a substantial number of works, including some important songs. BD2412 T 02:03, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

• @BD2412: Thank you very much for your comments. I am all for its inclusion in the infobox, but I do not think (sincerely) that she is widely regarded a songwriter, to an enough extent that it could be incorporated into the lead sentence. I stand with the consensus of the previous RfC. The fact that Beyonce has recently gained recognition as a songwriter (though not very explicitly) with her 2016 album Lemonade does not help that it is a defining characteristic of hers. She did win awards as a songwriter, but (I hate to resort to WP:OTHERSTUFF) Taylor Swift won awards for directing music videos too, but nobody refers to her as a rightful music video director. A quick search with "Beyonce" and "songwriter" and there is minimal result. Alas, I could even advocate for the inclusion of "businesswoman" in the lead because "reliable sources" say so ([3] [4] [5] [6] HĐ (talk) 03:43, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

• I would have no problem describing Taylor Swift as a music video director in the lede of her article is there were sources identifying her as such. Of course, if "nobody refers to her" that way, presumably that means there are not sources referring to her that way. With respect to the recentness of Lemonade, well, 2016 isn't that recent. We also have a problem of scale here. Compare someone like Dani Stevenson, who is described as a songwriter despite a lifetime output of around a dozen credited songs, but who can't really be described any other way because those dozen songs are her substantial basis for notability. At the very least, the subject of the article at bar is more of a songwriter than article subjects described as songwriters on the basis of substantially less work. BD2412 T 04:18, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

• Stevenson is described as a singer-songwriter because, well, her entire discography is minimal compared to Beyonce's vast discography, so I don't think that comparison would be appropriate (four singles compared to... we all know how many hits Beyonce has). I don't even think we need to compare to other articles (though I did make a comparison to Taylor Swift..), but we need to focus on what makes Beyonce notable in the first place. I agree that 2016 is not that recent, but as I said, it does not constitute songwriter as a defining characteristic of Beyonce. I can similarly argue that Beyonce is a rightful businesswoman, or maybe even a political activist. The first sentence should tell the nonspecialist reader what, or who, the subject is, and a quick browse through Google gives the first articles that discuss other songwriters who composed for Beyonce... Describing her as a songwriter in the lead would thus be WP:UNDUE. HĐ (talk) 04:38, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

• I think we just disagree, and there we are. If she wasn't a songwriter before Lemonade, she certainly has been since. BD2412 T 06:06, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

• Then shouldn't businesswoman or activist be in the lead, in the same vein as songwriter? HĐ (talk) 07:36, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

• If there are sources describing her as such, then yes, of course. But even this Hello! piece specifically on her philanthropy starts off by saying "The singer and songwriter's acts of kindness are wide-ranging", without identifying her as a businesswoman or activist. BD2412 T 16:42, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

• Hello!--a rather gossip magazine---is not a reliable source for music articles. Even so, why don't we include all occupations in the infobox into the lead? You are not taking into consideration the difference between the infobox and the lead--the latter is supposed to provide readers with what the subject is known for. And as I said somewhere in this discussion, you can take a dozen of sources from ready-for-consumption online articles to claim she is A or B or C, whatever to your will. HĐ (talk) 02:13, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

• "Beyoncé" is not "a music article", it's a biography. If you believe that limitations apply as to the sources usable for this article, please indicate which policy imposes such limitations. BD2412 T 02:19, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

• There is a consensus on the magazine (Pardon me for not remembering where the link to the discussion is...) By "music article" I mean that this is an article on an important figure in music, so please don't be nitpick-y on what I say unless it is extremely misleading. Other than that, as I said, the lead can basically be expanded to include every job title listed in the infobox for the same reason why we should include songwriter--which is also the fundamental difference between what the lead and the infobox are supposed to include. HĐ (talk) 03:27, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
• Either way, I have been enough of a dissident in this discussion, and because I am repeating what I had said earlier, I will leave it to those who have not been involved to carry out a more productive discussion. HĐ (talk) 03:38, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Discussion (for the lead)

Before anyone starts, I would recommend that you take a look at a similar discussion that has just ended previously. Specifically, if you are targeting WP:DEFINING, make sure to bring out a very concrete source that backs this claim, and certainly ready-for-consumption online articles would do no good. HĐ (talk) 16:22, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Moving my discussion here to keep the clarity of Yes/No votes. Other editors can feel free to add their discussion here as well, which I especially recommend. HĐ (talk) 16:10, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

@HĐ: Thanks for your reply. I'm afraid the argument isn't logically sound though. As I have said, a characteristic should be included in the lead if it "is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having" according to WP:DEFINING, which brings the example that if a source states "Caravaggio, an Italian artist of the Baroque movement", then "Italian", "artist", and "Baroque" can be considered to be defining characteristics of Caravaggio. This means that when reliable sources say, for example "The formidable singer and songwriter from Houston, Texas", then "singer", "songwriter", and "from Houston, Texas" can be considered to be defining characteristics of Beyonce. I do not see how this is up for debate. Your reply to Akhiljaxxn seems to be focusing on the topic of how much Beyonce writes in her songs. As BawinV kindly stated, that is a separate issue from whether songwriting is a defining characteristic of Beyonce's or not. You said that "News sources are not reliable as in-depth, scholarly analysis", but then didn't bring any in-depth scholarly analysis that support your point of view. You brought articles that state that Beyonce has had co-writers and uses samples, which you say "proves that songwriter is not a "commonly described" profession of hers". None of the sources say that. It is original research to interpret an article saying that Beyonce has had co-writers and uses samples to mean that songwriting is not a noteworthy characteristic of Beyonce's. If readers want to learn more about how Beyonce writes songs, the relevant section in the article and individual articles on specific songs should explain that, if your concern is that readers will misunderstand what a songwriter is and think she always writes independently, and the songwriter article is there as well for them to learn about what a songwriter is (which includes having co-writers). However it is not up to Wikipedia editors to conduct original research, decide for themselves whether they think Beyonce's songwriting is "authentic" or not, and then use that as an argument for whether songwriting is a noteworthy characteristic of Beyonce's or not. We should be following Wikipedia's guidelines on this, which clearly state that this is determined by whether reliable sources have consistently called Beyonce a songwriter, which they do. Bgkc4444 (talk) 15:17, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

• @Bgkc4444: Sorry, I'll keep it short: (1) Vogue is not a reliable source for music articles; (2) Songwriter is perfect for the infobox, not the lead (see the discussion that I linked); (3) it is not original research to cite more than two articles that question the credibility of Beyonce as a songwriter to dispute the claim that "songwriter" should be in the lead sentence; (4) please read the definition of lead sentence again; Beyonce is not widely known as a songwriter, per quite a few articles that disputed this claim. HĐ (talk) 15:28, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
• I would like to hear your comments on my following queries: If "songwriter" is added to the lead, then why aren't "dancer, businesswoman, and director" added as well, given that she has achieved a certain level professionalism with all of the mentioned occupations? Given that AllMusic (a reliable source) called her a "artist and performance dynamo", shouldn't "performance artist" also be included in the lead? Just because a certain publication i.e. Vogue or CNBC has a Wikipedia article does not automatically grant it a reliable status; in this case, I'd very much prefer credible sources specializing in music i.e. Rolling Stone or NME, whose articles prove a certain degree of professionalism that actually discuss the significance of "songwriter" as Beyonce's known profession, in this case, its significance in her image, artistry, and critical reception. I could easily cite this or this or this and claim that "Beyonce is a political activist" because they are reliable sources that "constantly" (as you said) support the claim, then. HĐ (talk) 15:36, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
• I recognize you calling me out for original research, but I find it funny when you cite three sources and can claim that "songwriter" is a "defining characteristic" of Beyonce. I on my own can then cite three sources above and claim that she is a rightful activist, and this role is much noteworthy for the lead. There are more than enough articles out there that analyze the dubious role of "songwriter" as Beyonce's "defining characteristic". If you have access to the Wikipedia Open Library, I recommend you read this article by Myles McNutt ("From 'Mine' to 'Ours': Gendered Hierarchies of Authorship and the Limits of Taylor Swift's Paratextual Feminism". Communication, Culture and Critique. 13(1): 72–91. doi:10.1093/ccc/tcz042). It is a peer-reviewed article, published via Oxford Journals (which is a scholarly analysis that I, and many users I believe, prioritize over ready-for-consumption online news articles). Although the title suggests that this article is solely about Taylor Swift, a significant portion at the end of the article discusses Beyonce's authorship of her songs, and discusses whether Beyonce can be defined as a songwriter. HĐ (talk) 15:48, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

• Overall, songwriter is not a defining characteristic of Beyonce. "Reliable sources calling her a songwriter" does not make her one (I can use this logic to claim that Beyonce is an activist, a dancer, a businesswoman as well, just browse through the internet). The definition of "reliable sources" by some editors here are crooked, so I'd recommend editors prefer peer-reviewed, extensive scholarly analyses over ready-for-consumption online articles, even if the articles come from Billboard (which called Beyonce an activist... which again proved my point). Oxford Music defined Beyonce as simply "American R&B singer and actress", so I am not seeing a consensus on "songwriter" as lead-worthy. The fact that Beyonce has gained momentum as a songwriter recently with Lemonade does not do any good, and it certainly does not back up Bgkc4444's claim that "songwriter" has been "defining" of Beyonce since her career beginnings. HĐ (talk) 16:09, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

• And to reply to Bgkc4444's comments on Ms. Taylor Swift; you cited one article that said Swift can't sing but that is not strong enough to dismiss her as a singer. With that same logic, you can cite a dozen of articles calling Beyonce a gifted writer, but that is not strong enough to claim Beyonce as a songwriter. A dozen other articles out there can simply dispute this claim, and that certainly does not make it a "defining" characteristic of Beyonce, if that is what you're after. After all, baking very delicious cakes does not make you a baker, right? HĐ (talk) 16:19, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

This discussion will go round in circles. To clarify, this discussion is not about whether we think Beyonce is a good or bad songwriter. As I have said many times, this is about whether songwriting is a noteworthy role of hers or not. (1) Vogue is a reliable source according to WP:RSP, but that was just an example anyway. (2) I disagreed with the "no" votes in the previous discussion and still do, as with most other editors in this discussion. (3 and 4) I don't feel that I should be continuing to repeat myself; I explained above that articles saying that Beyonce has had co-writers and uses samples does not affect whether songwriting is a noteworthy role of hers in any way. To the rest, if you want those to be considered for inclusion, it's probably best to start a new RfC rather than clog this one up with different discussions. This RfC is about whether songwriting is a noteworthy role of Beyonce's, not about how much we think she's an authentic songwriter and not about whether other roles should be included in the lead. Apologies that my actions were so "funny" to you. Not sure what you're trying to prove with that paper as it refutes your argument. The paper explicitly says that Beyonce is an example of an artist "who also serve as writers and producers of their own work", that criticism of Beyonce for not being an authentic songwriter because she has co-writers is wrong, and that this criticism stems from sexism and racism directed against her. So thanks for that, it was certainly enlightening and useful. Bgkc4444 (talk) 16:35, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

@Bgkc4444: Sorry, you based your claim upon WP:DEFINING, and I just rebutted that as the main point. Instead of constructing an argument against my list of back-up supports, you implicitly disdained me for "sexism and racism" (whew!) You did not even take into consideration that WP:LEADSENTENCE strictly allows for what is known of her on a wide scale, you just focused on your claim that "songwriter is noteworthy of her"... Well, what about actress, entrepreneur, and dancer? They are all notable, and you just did not reply to that. Like I said, baking cakes does not make you a baker. That paper does not explicitly say that she is a songwriter by any means. HĐ (talk) 16:40, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

You did not rebut any claims, HĐ, and I did not "disdain" you for racism and sexism; the paper that you brought brings up Beyonce directly because she's an example of a songwriter whose status as a songwriter was challenged because she's a woman, to then say that Taylor Swift received recognition for being a songwriter as a woman the year after, but still that was due to her benefiting from her whiteness. I don't see why you should take that personally if it doesn't apply to you, which of course I assume it doesn't. I answered your other points in the message you're replying to - I don't think we should keep repeating ourselves.

@Bgkc4444: Did you even read the paper? You are not even discussing my points on WP:DEFINING. HĐ (talk) 16:50, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I read the paper, which is why I quoted what was in it and didn't act surprised or offended when doing so. I don't believe you've made any points on WP:DEFINING, as you seem to be saying that that guideline shouldn't be used and we should instead make this decision based on whether we consider Beyonce to be an authentic songwriter or not. However, if I've missed any point, please let me know. Bgkc4444 (talk) 17:05, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

I got your point regarding the paper. I want to not that the paper does not explicitly discuss Beyonce as a songwriter in its own means (though it does acknowledge her as the creative director/exec producer of her own music). The reason why I raised the paper was to show you that there is no consensus on songwriter as a defining characteristic of Beyonce. You said somewhere that it was characteristic of her from her career beginnings, which I rebutted with a citation from Oxford Music which simply called her a singer and actress. That alone, to me, is enough to justify that Beyonce is not a songwriter (at least a known songwriter). I hope this is clear, and would like to hear your follow-up arguments. HĐ (talk) 17:10, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps it'd be best to strike out your multiple false accusations and assumptions of bad faith against me here, on my talk page and on ANI, then, if you do want to have a constructive discussion. Yes, your paper does say she's a songwriter; Beyonce is their example of an artist "who also serve as writers and producers of their own work". The source doesn't show that there's no consensus; the authors of the article said that someone made a meme about Beyonce not being an authentic songwriter and that that is incorrect, racist and sexist. An incorrect, racist and sexist meme certainly isn't a reliable source - the reliable source here is the authors of the article. Regarding Oxford Music, that's one source, and actually both you and Isento have given contradictory opinions regarding this; Isento said we can't use old sources because the accusations against her hadn't come to light, and you said we can't use new sources because she has only "gained momentum as a songwriter recently". Bgkc4444 (talk) 17:21, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

As Games of the world put it on the noticeboard, new accusations against Bgkc4444 are unfounded. Like Bgkc4444 and other editors, I stand by the point Beyoncé Knowles-Carter is indeed a songwriter, and a renown one. The problem w/ this discussion is that very strong arguments are made, reliable and solid sources are provided, yet certain editors will blatantly ignore them and make untrue statements. Some points then have to be reiterated, and a particular editor then takes issue w/ that, even though they are the ones ignoring certain guidelines. This Billboard source published only two weeks ago [7] hail Taylor swift and Beyoncé as "the top songwriters in Grammy history." This 2011 Billboard source [8] hails Beyoncé as part of the Top 20 Hot 100 songwriters, and keep in mind there are millions of songwriters out there. And here is another source [9] that attest to Beyoncé's skills and notability as a songwriter: "Beyoncé may be a highly regarded singer, actress, and fashion designer, but she’s also a talented songwriter who’s written a majority of her hit tracks. Though the singer uses a large team of songwriters and instrumentalists to help give her songs that unique edge and power, Bey is very much involved in the creative process." And this article here from Berklee Online: [10] entitled 'Songwriting Advice from 10 Grammy-Nominated Songwriters'. In Beyoncé's case, she won Best R&B Song four times (a record) and Song of the Year once, and both awards go to the songwriter(s). She was also in 2001 awarded by ASCAP for her songwriting w/ Destiny's Child. HD's statements that songwriting is not a defining characteristic of Beyoncé's, that she was only recently recognized as a songwriter or that she's not a songwriter or a known songwriter are plain false. Period! Can anybody prove that Beyoncé's 346 songwriting are stolen or bought and she wrote nothing? No. Can anybody even prove that one fourth of those credits are stolen or bought and she wrote nothing. No. The authenticity of her songwriting is not what is being debated here. WP:STICKTOSOURCE WP:V. Most everything Beyoncé sings, she wrote and she produced (in association w/ others like most of her peers). The lead must include "songwriter." And you'll notice that it is par for the course on Wikipedia for many recording artists to be defined as such in the lead of their articles; some may be more regarded than others (by various members of the public) as songwriters, but they are all defined as such because it is noteworthy enough. It is not so much about what so or so thinks (people think and assume falsehoods all the time) but about whether or not it is a great part of what they do and if a number of reliable sources do make mention of their songwriting. Not including "songwriter" to the lead of Beyoncé's article definitely goes against Wikipedia standards. Would it make sense not to use the term "singer" in the lead of the article of some recording artists just because many do not regard them as singers or true vocalists? No. It is time for this discussion to come to a close, and I have nothing more to add. Israell (talk) 21:43, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

To sum up... your arguments for songwriter are perfect for the infobox, but we are talking about the lead sentence here. Baking cakes does not make you a baker. Similarly, writing songs does not make you a songwriter. See my definition for what "reliable sources" is. And please respond to me why, in a similar vein, are "dancer", "activist", "entrepreneur" not added like "songwriter". HĐ (talk) 03:35, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

I proposed a long time ago to attach a footnote accompanying songwriter in the lead, stating that she's only been credited as a co-writer. Something like this. However, it may be more appropriate to mention in the lead that, in reference to her creative process, she works extensively with a host of writers and producers for her own work. That would reflect and account for a sizable amount of coverage in the body. Yes, that is not the specific priority of this RfC. But I hope we can agree we're all here trying to improve the article in what ways we can. isento (talk) 13:14, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

As previously mentioned, in no way does a songwriter having co-writers or using samples mean that they are not a songwriter or negates their status as one in any way, therefore describing her as a songwriter in the lead does not warrant a "qualifier". It would be original research to include such material merely because editors may believe so despite there not being reliable sources to back up the claim. What reliable sources do say is that a) Beyonce is a songwriter, b) having co-writers does not affect a songwriter's status and is perfectly normal, and c) trying to downplay or deny Beyonce's status as a songwriter because she has co-writers is incorrect, sexist and racist (as the source that HĐ brought above explained, for example). And I agree, I do hope that we're all here to improve the article. I hope that my points can be responded to to help the discussion move forward, instead of it going round in circles and being contained with personal attacks and assumptions of bad faith, as has characterized certain parts of the discussion so far. Bgkc4444 (talk) 16:14, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Bgkc4444. Nothing more to add. Israell (talk) 16:26, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

I am still waiting for your response on why other occupations like "dancer" or "businesswoman/entrepreneur" should not be included in the lead, as with songwriter. HĐ (talk) 02:14, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Is this addressed to me? If so, I previously said "if you want those to be considered for inclusion, it's probably best to start a new RfC rather than clog this one up with different discussions. This RfC is about whether songwriting is a noteworthy role of Beyonce's, not about how much we think she's an authentic songwriter and not about whether other roles should be included in the lead" and that hasn't changed. Trying to debate other topics makes the discussion confusing and ineffective for everyone involved. Bgkc4444 (talk) 11:25, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

It does relate to the inclusion of "songwriter" because adding such can make the lead expand to whatever job title others may think she is notable for. This essay puts it best. Beyonce is a songwriter, but she is not known for it. And that is the fundamental difference between the infobox and the lead that I have been trying to indicate. It is not about the "authenticity" of Bey as a songwriter, but about the notability of the job title. HĐ (talk) 03:22, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

• Either way, I have been enough of a dissident in this discussion, and because I am repeating what I had said earlier, I will leave it to those who have not been involved to carry out a more productive discussion. HĐ (talk) 03:38, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

After having read this entire discussion, in my opinion, songwriting is not a notable profession of Beyoncé. Like @HĐ: said, having songwriting credits doesn't make you a songwriter. Since Swift was inserted into the argument, I'd like to point out that Swift has openly talked about her songwriting, the stories behind her lyrics, her muses, how and when she writes songs, the whole creative process, videos of her writing etc. This ensues in publications widely covering that profession of hers, and thus, it gets labelled a notable profession of hers. The same goes with Beyoncé's dancing. Starting from the days of Destiny's Child, Beyoncé has explicitly showed the media that she is a dancer (and so, we have it in the lead sentence). Winning songwriting-awards doesn't make one a songwriter. Every pop star of today gets a songwriting credit like a royalty (Ariana Grande, Rihanna, Selena Gomez etc), irrespective of whether they actually wrote the song. In the field of songwriting, Beyoncé has not shared her "songwriting process" or explained her lyrics in the way Swift, Mariah Carey, Lady Gaga, Alicia Keys (all prominent songwriters) have. Therefore it is difficult for the mainstream media to view her as a notable songwriter. As long as she doesn't gain prominence as a notable songwriter, it wouldn't be appropriate to dub her a songwriter in the lead sentence; "songwriter" should stay in the infobox. BawinV (talk) 05:27, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Though I had nothing more to add, I'll respond to this comment. "Winning songwriting-awards doesn't make one a songwriter." Wikipedia, as I've already stated, is about WP:V and WP:STICKTOSOURCE. The rest—is none of our concern. It is overstepping our duties as editors to start making judgement calls and assuming songwriting credits are bollocks. What you've stated about Ariana Grande, Rihanna, Selena Gomez and so on is an assumption, not a provable fact. Such assumptions and personal judgements are not encyclopedic at all and are improper. Other editors and I have provided multiple reliable sources that certify Beyoncé as a songwriter, a notable one, and who are we to attest that those judges, reviewers, voters at the Grammy Awards, ASCAP Awards and Billboard are all misled and clueless? If they do (and they do) view Beyoncé as a legit songwriter, then so is she. It is not our place to determine otherwise and insist the lead reflect that. Beyoncé HAS repeatedly talked about her songwriting process in details; your argument is therefore erroneous. I understand in some cases, one may have gotten a songwriting credit for a song they really did not write at all, but we cannot just assume that; it is prejudicial and wrong.

Can just one editor here prove that just 20 of Beyoncé's 346 credits were stolen or bought and she did not write any word or melody at all? No! Until an editor proves it, such allegations need to stop now. As previously quoted: "Singer, songwriter and record producer The-Dream revealed: "We did a whole Fela album that didn’t go up. It was right before we did 4. We did a whole different sounding thing, about twenty songs. She said she wanted to do something that sounds like Fela. That’s why there’s so much of that sound in the “End of Time.” There’s always multiple albums being made. Most of the time we’re just being creative, period. We’re talking about B, somebody who sings all day long and somebody who writes all day long. There’s probably a hundred records just sitting around." One more confirmation from a fellow musician Beyoncé Knowles is indeed a songwriter and truly does write numerous songs. He's actually in a better position to tell us about her songwriting than any of us here.

As quoted in the article: "Tedder elaborated when speaking to Gigwise that “She does stuff on any given song that, when you go from the demo to the final version, takes it to another level that you never would have thought of as the writer. For instance, on ‘Halo,’ that bridge on her version is completely different to my original one. Basically, she came in, ditched that, edited it, did her vocal thing on it, and now it’s become one of my favorite parts of the song. The whole melody, she wrote it spontaneously in the studio. So her credit on that song stems from that.”" Just why are some editors ignoring such quotes?

In this video segment, Beyoncé explains in details how did she come up w/ the lyrics and vocal melody for the song 'Partition' [11]. And here is another video segment that delves even deeper into her songwriting process. [12] How, just how can any of that be just flat-out ignored for us to assume she just stole or bought most of those 346 credits and rarely wrote a thing (lyrics or melodies), rarely came up with any concept? In that segment, she says, among other things: "I said: 'Okay. I'm gonna take a risk, and I'm gonna bring R&B music back, and I'm gonna add bridges to songs and chord changes, and I'm gonna sing about love, and I'm gonna do the opposite of what I thought I was gonna do.'" Enough details now or should we just call her a liar, eh? If other singers you've mentioned are to be believed about their songwriting process, so does Beyoncé. And you yourself stated this RfC is *not* about the authenticity of her songwriting. Other editors and I have made a strong point Beyoncé's songwriting is notable enough, and the music industry agrees. And Beyoncé's extensive song production credits (hundreds of songs) is an evidence of even more of Beyoncé's involvement in the crafting of her songs. Binksternet, BD2412, Davey2010, do you have anything more to add? Israell (talk) 04:19, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Mariah Carey on Beyoncé: "She's a great writer, a great singer and a sweet person. I lover her." Drake on Beyoncé: “‘Pound Cake’ happened while I was writing for Beyoncé or working with Beyoncé, not writing for, working with. I hate saying writing for ’cause she’s a phenomenal writer. She has bars on bars.” Israell (talk) 07:31, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

So... now she's a writer? (CC) Tbhotch^™ 19:39, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Edit request

Why don't y'all have Blue Ivy,Sir and Rumi Carter on children? Nickiana.stan (talk) 13:47, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Only Blue Ivy Carter has an article. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 19:33, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 February 2021

i would like to correct sentences Lovely1000 (talk) 20:02, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Favonian (talk) 20:08, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Mention in lead that she is the most awarded singer in Grammy history?

Seems worth including in the lead SecretName101 (talk) 06:45, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Beyoncé the Catholic?

A recent edit says Beyoncé was raised Catholic, but I'm not sure this is accurate. The basis for the claim is an article referring to her family's church attendance in 1990. But over the course of her career, Beyoncé hasn't really talked about being Catholic, or professed to being raised as one. The most she's said is that she is Christian, and whenever she discusses attending church in her hometown, she mentions St. John's United Methodist Church, which her family started attending when she was still a child. It is where she donates. Her mom about the church: https://www.hellomagazine.com/celebrities/2020060490946/beyonce-mum-talks-stars-childhood-feeding-homeless/

A 2003 Time piece labels her a devout Methodist: http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,460207-2,00.html

2600:1702:2A40:3E40:B80A:4892:D85F:4523 (talk) 12:42, 25 March 2021 (UTC)