Talk:The Mousetrap: Difference between revisions
OneClickArchiver archived 1 discussion to Talk:The Mousetrap/Archive 4 |
restore two threads - useful to have a "but the murderer!" one on here so that it doesn't get started again, and the most recent thread from November raised a problem that remains unaddressed |
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== Identity of the murderer == |
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All the time, editors come and seek to remove the identity of the murderer. This is then reverted on the basis that Wikipedia has established policy. Also bear in mind that, when an artist creates something and puts it into the world, they don't have any say in how people use it (except in vary rare cases where, eg a photographer or a painter, may have a contractual hold on the user). Agatha Christie may well have asked that the identity not be revealed. Well, she would, wouldn't she? So would those who own the commercial rights on the show. But she is dead and they have no say. Personally, I think the world would have been done a favor if everyone knew who did it and nobody went to see this tired and unconvincing play. However, the point is, if people want to know who did it, without seeing the play, they are entitled to find out in an encyclopedia. [[User:Bluehotel|Bluehotel]] ([[User talk:Bluehotel|talk]]) 11:25, 4 August 2014 (UTC) |
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:I actually dont see the fact thsy she is dead as being the relevant issue . I am sure that we would keep the ending for Avatar if the still living Camrom made a similar request. While I am not a legal expert I doubt that authors/directors etc would not have the right to suspress stuff like this once the work is released for public consumption.--[[Special:Contributions/67.68.22.129|67.68.22.129]] ([[User talk:67.68.22.129|talk]]) 06:32, 5 August 2014 (UTC) |
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::I don't think it is suggested that her death is the relevant issue, merely observing that there's no way of arguing the toss with her. [[User:Pinkbeast|Pinkbeast]] ([[User talk:Pinkbeast|talk]]) 13:46, 5 August 2014 (UTC) |
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Agatha Christie's work is still copyrighted so I suppose that there is at least someone who has a say, even though I don't think that spoilers fall under copyright law. |
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However, it is said that everyone watching the play or reading the script (which is not publicly available) has to swear not to reveal the ending. Does it count as a NDA ? Does it mean that revealing it is actually illegal for someone who has watched the play ? [[Special:Contributions/217.109.123.82|217.109.123.82]] ([[User talk:217.109.123.82|talk]]) 16:00, 28 August 2014 (UTC) |
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:Obviously not. They are asked not to reveal it; they don't sign a contract on the way out agreeing not to do it (and even if they did it would not be illegal, but a breach of contract... assuming that such a contract was valid; they'd have to be offered a quid pro quo for signing). [[User:Pinkbeast|Pinkbeast]] ([[User talk:Pinkbeast|talk]]) 16:43, 28 August 2014 (UTC) |
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::If this was actually illegal I'm sure that Wikipedia's legal department would have taken the ending down a long time ago or there would have been suit by now. Also, while I am not a lawyer, I don't see any chance that being asked not to reveal something could possibility qualify as a legally binding contract. In short there is no NDA. If you unsure Wikipedia does have a legal department though I doubt that they would give a different answer.--[[Special:Contributions/69.157.252.247|69.157.252.247]] ([[User talk:69.157.252.247|talk]]) 04:15, 1 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:The script ''is'' publicly available, it's been sold in various printed book forms for decades, and the ending is revealed in textbooks that discuss the work, with no legal repercussion. Penguin Books, who have published one such collection of Christie's works, [http://www.penguin.com/static/pdf/teachersguides/mousetrap.pdf have an online teacher's guide] which openly reveals the ending, rather than awkwardly apologising for not being legally able to and telling the students that they'll just have to read to the end of the script themselves. --[[User:McGeddon|McGeddon]] ([[User talk:McGeddon|talk]]) 07:51, 3 September 2014 (UTC) |
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The script has no wording asking the audience not to reveal the ending. Neither does the short story "Three Blind Mice." --[[User talk:SarekOfVulcan|<span class="gfSarekSig">SarekOfVulcan (talk)</span>]] 16:20, 2 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:Even if it did I highly doubt that asking the audience to do that could possibly be considered a binding contract that would make posting the ending on Wikipedia illegal.--[[Special:Contributions/69.157.252.247|69.157.252.247]] ([[User talk:69.157.252.247|talk]]) 02:24, 3 September 2014 (UTC) |
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::And (although there is clearly no such contract) I for one have not seen the play, so I cannot possibly be a party to the (nonexistent) agreement with the audience. [[User:Pinkbeast|Pinkbeast]] ([[User talk:Pinkbeast|talk]]) 12:43, 3 September 2014 (UTC) |
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A Wikipedia article should be thorough enough to include a synopsis of a work's plot. The alternative is tantamount to saying you don't believe that Wikipedia articles on fictional works should be complete. There's really nothing else to say on the matter, is there? ▫ [[User:Urbane_Legend|Urbane Legend]] <sup>[[User_talk:Urbane_Legend|chinwag]]</sup> 22:11, 4 February 2015 (UTC) |
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== Plot summary makes little sense == |
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The plot summary in its current version makes little sense. First, for instance, "the Corrigans" are mentioned without ever having been introduced. Second, Sergeant Trotter is described as "the eldest of the three Corrigan children," but we are then told that Miss Casewell is "Trotter's elder sister." Beyond these inconsistencies, it might help if other loose ends are tied up (e.g. what are the true reasons for Paravincini's apparently suspicious behaviour). |
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Anyhow, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Mousetrap&oldid=551486266 this version] of the summary has at least the virtue of internal consistency. I propose to revert to that version unless there are strong objections. --[[User:Jbmurray|jbmurray]] ([[User talk:Jbmurray|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jbmurray|contribs]]) 06:33, 25 August 2014 (UTC) |
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: Well, I for one would object if you literally mean to revert to that version, because there have been quite a number of edits made, some of which are considered and important. I think you need to make edits to the existing version, so we can see what's what. If that means you take quite a bit from the previous version, that is fine. That would be my view. [[User:Bluehotel|Bluehotel]] ([[User talk:Bluehotel|talk]]) 12:44, 1 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:I prefer the older plot summary, for the same reasons. [[User:Pinkbeast|Pinkbeast]] ([[User talk:Pinkbeast|talk]]) 14:13, 2 September 2014 (UTC) |
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Paravicini just doesn't make sense. :-) In "Three Blind Mice", it's a bit more explicit that he's a black marketeer, but knowing that doesn't really clarify the way he interacts with Trotter. --[[User talk:SarekOfVulcan|<span class="gfSarekSig">SarekOfVulcan (talk)</span>]] 16:22, 2 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:I've hacked together an entirely new plot summary [[User:Fluffernutter/sandbox|in my sandbox]]. It's undoubtedly overly detailed and in serious need of pruning and copyediting, but I'd be happy to put it in the article so it can be cut down to size (or to leave it in my sandbox for a bit so it can be cut down to size there). [[User:Fluffernutter|A fluffernutter is a sandwich!]] ([[User talk:Fluffernutter|talk]]) 18:14, 2 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:: It's the second part of the plot summary that's problematic, I think. In fact, I never entirely got it when I saw the play. Who the Corrigan children are, for example, needs explaining. [[User:Bluehotel|Bluehotel]] ([[User talk:Bluehotel|talk]]) 19:39, 2 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:::That's explained in the paragraph that starts "Trotter and Giles return and Trotter explains his purpose to the household" in my summary. The kids are a bit of a [[MacGuffin]]; they exist to be something that motivated the killer to kill. [[User:Fluffernutter|A fluffernutter is a sandwich!]] ([[User talk:Fluffernutter|talk]]) 19:41, 2 September 2014 (UTC) |
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[[User:Fluffernutter]]'s replacement plot summary is nearly 2000 words in length - [[MOS:PLOT]] recommends keeping plot summaries "between 400 and 700 words", so we really need to pare this back down. --[[User:McGeddon|McGeddon]] ([[User talk:McGeddon|talk]]) 13:57, 25 November 2014 (UTC) |
Revision as of 15:40, 27 February 2015
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Before commenting on the fact that the article gives away the ending of the play, make sure you have read this page's frequently asked questions (FAQ), the guideline on when to use spoiler warnings and the content disclaimer. |
Q1: Should the article include the identity of the murderer? (Short answer: Yes.)
A1: Per Wikipedia's policy on "spoilers", "Spoilers are no different from any other content and should not be deleted solely because they are spoilers." This has been discussed numerous times on this article's talk page, and consensus among Wikipedia editors has consistently been in favor of keeping them. Keep in mind that there is an encyclopaedic benefit to researchers and other readers who have not and will not likely ever see the play. Q2: Should the article have a spoiler warning? (Short answer: No.)
A2: Wikipedia does not use spoiler warnings in conjunction with its policy against censoring content, observing that "No other academic, scholarly, or other professional publication that describes or analyze works of fiction, such as other encyclopedias, includes disclaimers about spoilers when discussing said works." Consensus has shown that separating the end of the play into a separate section titled "Identity of the murderer" is sufficient to warn readers that they are about to read the end of the play. Q3: Should we place the "Identity of the murder" section into a collapsible box/table/area? (Short answer: No.)
A3: Collapsible areas can make it difficult for mobile browsers or accessibility tools such as those used by the visually impaired to correctly display the page, which is contrary to Wikipedia's goal to be accessible to everyone. Because of this, using such techniques to hide text is generally discouraged in articles unless it is used to collapse long lists or other such information that would otherwise be disadvantageous to simply scroll through. Q4: Should Wikipedia respect the tradition to not spoil the end of the play? (Short answer: No.)
A4: The play itself, including the ending, has been in publication since 1954 and is widely available, and the article's plot summary reflects that. As a worldwide information resource, Wikipedia is not censored, and does not remove spoilers simply because they are spoilers. There is an encyclopaedic benefit to researchers and other readers who have not and will not likely ever be able to see the play. Discussions on the article have determined that these benefits outweigh the tradition to not spoil it. |
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on November 25, 2011 and November 25, 2014. |
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This page has archives. Sections older than 31 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
Identity of the murderer
All the time, editors come and seek to remove the identity of the murderer. This is then reverted on the basis that Wikipedia has established policy. Also bear in mind that, when an artist creates something and puts it into the world, they don't have any say in how people use it (except in vary rare cases where, eg a photographer or a painter, may have a contractual hold on the user). Agatha Christie may well have asked that the identity not be revealed. Well, she would, wouldn't she? So would those who own the commercial rights on the show. But she is dead and they have no say. Personally, I think the world would have been done a favor if everyone knew who did it and nobody went to see this tired and unconvincing play. However, the point is, if people want to know who did it, without seeing the play, they are entitled to find out in an encyclopedia. Bluehotel (talk) 11:25, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- I actually dont see the fact thsy she is dead as being the relevant issue . I am sure that we would keep the ending for Avatar if the still living Camrom made a similar request. While I am not a legal expert I doubt that authors/directors etc would not have the right to suspress stuff like this once the work is released for public consumption.--67.68.22.129 (talk) 06:32, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- I don't think it is suggested that her death is the relevant issue, merely observing that there's no way of arguing the toss with her. Pinkbeast (talk) 13:46, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Agatha Christie's work is still copyrighted so I suppose that there is at least someone who has a say, even though I don't think that spoilers fall under copyright law. However, it is said that everyone watching the play or reading the script (which is not publicly available) has to swear not to reveal the ending. Does it count as a NDA ? Does it mean that revealing it is actually illegal for someone who has watched the play ? 217.109.123.82 (talk) 16:00, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
- Obviously not. They are asked not to reveal it; they don't sign a contract on the way out agreeing not to do it (and even if they did it would not be illegal, but a breach of contract... assuming that such a contract was valid; they'd have to be offered a quid pro quo for signing). Pinkbeast (talk) 16:43, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
- If this was actually illegal I'm sure that Wikipedia's legal department would have taken the ending down a long time ago or there would have been suit by now. Also, while I am not a lawyer, I don't see any chance that being asked not to reveal something could possibility qualify as a legally binding contract. In short there is no NDA. If you unsure Wikipedia does have a legal department though I doubt that they would give a different answer.--69.157.252.247 (talk) 04:15, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
- The script is publicly available, it's been sold in various printed book forms for decades, and the ending is revealed in textbooks that discuss the work, with no legal repercussion. Penguin Books, who have published one such collection of Christie's works, have an online teacher's guide which openly reveals the ending, rather than awkwardly apologising for not being legally able to and telling the students that they'll just have to read to the end of the script themselves. --McGeddon (talk) 07:51, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
The script has no wording asking the audience not to reveal the ending. Neither does the short story "Three Blind Mice." --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:20, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- Even if it did I highly doubt that asking the audience to do that could possibly be considered a binding contract that would make posting the ending on Wikipedia illegal.--69.157.252.247 (talk) 02:24, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
- And (although there is clearly no such contract) I for one have not seen the play, so I cannot possibly be a party to the (nonexistent) agreement with the audience. Pinkbeast (talk) 12:43, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
A Wikipedia article should be thorough enough to include a synopsis of a work's plot. The alternative is tantamount to saying you don't believe that Wikipedia articles on fictional works should be complete. There's really nothing else to say on the matter, is there? ▫ Urbane Legend chinwag 22:11, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Plot summary makes little sense
The plot summary in its current version makes little sense. First, for instance, "the Corrigans" are mentioned without ever having been introduced. Second, Sergeant Trotter is described as "the eldest of the three Corrigan children," but we are then told that Miss Casewell is "Trotter's elder sister." Beyond these inconsistencies, it might help if other loose ends are tied up (e.g. what are the true reasons for Paravincini's apparently suspicious behaviour).
Anyhow, this version of the summary has at least the virtue of internal consistency. I propose to revert to that version unless there are strong objections. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 06:33, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
- Well, I for one would object if you literally mean to revert to that version, because there have been quite a number of edits made, some of which are considered and important. I think you need to make edits to the existing version, so we can see what's what. If that means you take quite a bit from the previous version, that is fine. That would be my view. Bluehotel (talk) 12:44, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
- I prefer the older plot summary, for the same reasons. Pinkbeast (talk) 14:13, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Paravicini just doesn't make sense. :-) In "Three Blind Mice", it's a bit more explicit that he's a black marketeer, but knowing that doesn't really clarify the way he interacts with Trotter. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:22, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- I've hacked together an entirely new plot summary in my sandbox. It's undoubtedly overly detailed and in serious need of pruning and copyediting, but I'd be happy to put it in the article so it can be cut down to size (or to leave it in my sandbox for a bit so it can be cut down to size there). A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:14, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- It's the second part of the plot summary that's problematic, I think. In fact, I never entirely got it when I saw the play. Who the Corrigan children are, for example, needs explaining. Bluehotel (talk) 19:39, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- That's explained in the paragraph that starts "Trotter and Giles return and Trotter explains his purpose to the household" in my summary. The kids are a bit of a MacGuffin; they exist to be something that motivated the killer to kill. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 19:41, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- It's the second part of the plot summary that's problematic, I think. In fact, I never entirely got it when I saw the play. Who the Corrigan children are, for example, needs explaining. Bluehotel (talk) 19:39, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
User:Fluffernutter's replacement plot summary is nearly 2000 words in length - MOS:PLOT recommends keeping plot summaries "between 400 and 700 words", so we really need to pare this back down. --McGeddon (talk) 13:57, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
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