Talk:Heinrich Himmler: Difference between revisions

Content deleted Content added

Inline

Latest revision as of 13:03, 10 November 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Heinrich Himmler article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4: 28 days

Heinrich Himmler has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
December 18, 2011	Good article nominee	Not listed
July 16, 2012	Good article nominee	Listed

Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on May 23, 2017, and May 23, 2020.

Current status: Good article

Biography: Military / Politics and Government

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
	This article is supported by the military biography work group (assessed as High-importance).
	This article is supported by the politics and government work group (assessed as High-importance).

Germany: Munich High‑importance

	Germany portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GermanyWikipedia:WikiProject GermanyTemplate:WikiProject GermanyGermany
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by WikiProject Munich (assessed as High-importance).

Bavaria High‑importance

	Bavaria portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bavaria, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Bavaria on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BavariaWikipedia:WikiProject BavariaTemplate:WikiProject BavariaBavaria
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Military history: Biography / European / German / World War I / World War II

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history

Associated task forces:
/
	Military biography task force
	European military history task force
	German military history task force
	World War I task force
	World War II task force

Himmler's corpse

While the body of Himmler was buried near Lüneburg if that grave was found it would not contain Himmler's body. Himmler's body was cremated after a second autopsy at the Hannover Military Hospital, there is ample evidence that this happened, you just have to look. There is even doubt over whether it was Himmler or a double 175.39.57.180 (talk) 09:37, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 22 October 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In this introduction sentence:

He is primarily known for being one of the main architects behind the Holocaust.

please replace "behind" with "of". It sounds bizarre to say that someone was an "architect behind" anything, whether literally for buildings, or figuratively for anything else. 123.51.107.94 (talk) 22:52, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done I agree, "behind" reads awkwardly there. But the whole sentence could afford to be reworded for flow if anyone has any suggestions. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:18, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Great Britain"

It is an island, not a country. Grassynoel (talk) 03:16, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 37: / Line 37: @@
 }}
 __TOC__
+== Himmler's corpse ==
-==Clarification Needed==
+While the body of Himmler was buried near Lüneburg if that grave was found it would not contain Himmler's body. Himmler's body was cremated after a second autopsy at the Hannover Military Hospital, there is ample evidence that this happened, you just have to look. There is even doubt over whether it was Himmler or a double [[Special:Contributions/175.39.57.180|175.39.57.180]] ([[User talk:175.39.57.180|talk]]) 09:37, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
-The article currently states (my emphasis in '''bold'''):
+== Semi-protected edit request on 22 October 2024 ==
-:''Heinrich Luitpold Himmler was born in Munich on 7 October 1900 into a conservative middle-class Roman Catholic family. His father was '''Joseph Gebhard''' Himmler (1865–1936), a teacher, and his mother was Anna Maria Himmler (née Heyder; 1866–1941), a devout Roman Catholic. Heinrich had two brothers: '''Gebhard Ludwig''' (1898–1982) and Ernst Hermann (1905–1945).[3]
+{{edit semi-protected|Heinrich Himmler|answered=yes}}
-:''Himmler's first name, Heinrich, was that of his godfather, Prince Heinrich of Bavaria, a member of the royal family of Bavaria, '''who had been tutored by Gebhard Himmler.'''[4][5]
+In this introduction sentence:
+ He is primarily known for being one of the main architects behind the Holocaust.
-The article is currently unclear whether it was Heinrich's brother or father who tutored the prince, since they both shared the name. Without access to the sources cited, it would appear that it was his father simply based on DOBs and the fact that his father was a teacher.
+please replace "behind" with "of".  It sounds bizarre to say that someone was an "architect behind" anything, whether literally for buildings, or figuratively for anything else. [[Special:Contributions/123.51.107.94|123.51.107.94]] ([[User talk:123.51.107.94|talk]]) 22:52, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
-If I may suggest an alternate wording for the final sentence in my above quote:
+:{{done}} I agree, "behind" reads awkwardly there. But the whole sentence could afford to be reworded for flow if anyone has any suggestions. [[User:Thebiguglyalien|<span style="color:#324717">The</span><span style="color:#45631f">big</span><span style="color:#547826">ugly</span><span style="color:#68942f">alien</span>]] ([[User talk:Thebiguglyalien|<span style="color:sienna">talk</span>]]) 01:18, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
+== "Great Britain" ==
-:''Himmler was named after his godfather, [[Prince Heinrich of Bavaria]], who his father had tutored.''
+It is an island, not a country. [[User:Grassynoel|Grassynoel]] ([[User talk:Grassynoel|talk]]) 03:16, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
---[[Special:Contributions/2607:FEA8:E983:F200:2159:71E7:4DCC:3729|2607:FEA8:E983:F200:2159:71E7:4DCC:3729]] ([[User talk:2607:FEA8:E983:F200:2159:71E7:4DCC:3729|talk]]) 19:41, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
-:Thank you for noticing this issue. I have fixed it by saying {{tpq|Himmler's first name, Heinrich, was that of his godfather, [[Prince Heinrich of Bavaria]], a member of the royal family of Bavaria who had been tutored by Himmler's father.}}  — [[User:Diannaa|Diannaa]] ([[User talk:Diannaa|talk]]) 23:01, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
-== Adolf Hitler and Heinrich Himmlers relationship ==
-I would like to learn more about their relationship [[Special:Contributions/164.151.16.14|164.151.16.14]] ([[User talk:164.151.16.14|talk]]) 09:22, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
-:The name "Hitler" appears in this article 132 times. What do you think is missing? Thanks. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 09:56, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
-== "In this capacity, he took part in the genocide" ==
-I don't think it's accurate to say Himmler "took part in the genocide" when he personally did not kill anybody. I changed it to say he "played a major role in the genocide" but was reverted. Which wording to people think is better? Discussion welcome. — [[User:Diannaa|Diannaa]] ([[User talk:Diannaa|talk]]) 23:08, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
-:Ordering or coordinating it is taking part in an essential way. ([[User:Hohum|<b style="color: Green;">Hohum</b>]] [[User talk:Hohum|<sup style="color: Red;">@</sup>]]) 23:16, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
-:If we’re going to be sticklers for semantics, I recommend to have the sentence read Himmler “took part in '''orchestrating''' the genocide”. I think we should avoid any language that potentially plays down his role in the Holocaust. [[User:Emiya1980|Emiya1980]] ([[User talk:Emiya1980|talk]]) 23:20, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
-::Fair point. ([[User:Hohum|<b style="color: Green;">Hohum</b>]] [[User talk:Hohum|<sup style="color: Red;">@</sup>]]) 23:57, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
-:Its important to be factually accurate. No one wants to downplay someone who was an architect of terror/murder/death. I would recommend: Himmler’s SS was the organisation most responsible for the genocidal murder of [[Holocaust victims|an estimated 5.5 to 6 million Jews and the deaths of millions of other victims]] during [[the Holocaust]]. He was not the only one and the SS was not the only group, unit or organisation involved. [[User:Kierzek|Kierzek]] ([[User talk:Kierzek|talk]]) 00:08, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
-::As I indicated to you earlier, that sentence is needlessly verbose. Moreover, this article is about Himmler himself, not the SS. The focus of the lede should be centered around '''him'''. [[User:Emiya1980|Emiya1980]] ([[User talk:Emiya1980|talk]]) 00:14, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
-:::It’s accurate. And you cannot separate one from the other. [[User:Kierzek|Kierzek]] ([[User talk:Kierzek|talk]]) 00:17, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
-:::There is nothing inaccurate about saying Himmler took part in orchestrating the Holocaust. It is just a more concise way of conveying the same meaning of what you're trying to say. Additionally, if we frame the sentence your way, “Himmler” and some form of the phrase "was responsible" would appear two sentences in a row which is needlessly repetitive.<s>Stop trying to use this thread to shoehorn your verbosity back in the lede.</s> [[User:Emiya1980|Emiya1980]] ([[User talk:Emiya1980|talk]]) 00:19, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
-::::If the sentence read “he and his SS took part in orchestrating the genocide”, would you find that an acceptable compromise?[[User:Emiya1980|Emiya1980]] ([[User talk:Emiya1980|talk]]) 00:54, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
-:::::I think that is a bit awkward. The version we had when we passed GA was "As facilitator and overseer of the concentration camps, Himmler directed the killing of some six million Jews, between 200,000 and 500,000 Romani people, and other victims; the total number of civilians killed by the regime is estimated at eleven to fourteen million people."{{pb}}We could use that as a starting point; perhaps go with "In this capacity, Himmler directed the genocide of [[Holocaust victims|an estimated 5.5–6&nbsp;million Jews as well as the deaths of millions of other victims]] during [[the Holocaust]]." (The total number of deaths is already covered later in the paragraph.)  — [[User:Diannaa|Diannaa]] ([[User talk:Diannaa|talk]]) 01:10, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
-:::::As long as you replaced “Himmler” with “he” for reasons already mentioned  <s>and included the word “mass” alongside “killing”</s>, I would not have an issue with the sentence as set forth in the second paragraph of your post. [[User:Emiya1980|Emiya1980]] ([[User talk:Emiya1980|talk]]) 01:24, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
-::::::? My suggestion doesn't use the word "killing"  — [[User:Diannaa|Diannaa]] ([[User talk:Diannaa|talk]]) 01:29, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
-:::::: My mistake. I've crossed out what I said with regards to "mass killing". [[User:Emiya1980|Emiya1980]] ([[User talk:Emiya1980|talk]]) 01:30, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
-:::::::{{ec}} And it took you six edits. Also @ [[User:Kierzek|Kierzek]], this suggestion does not incorporate the fact that other groups besides the SS (the Wehrmacht for example) were involved in mass killings of civilians. But I don't see how we can incorporate that without the sentence getting too awkward or long. It's a bit off-topic here as well IMO. Would you be OK with that being left out?  — [[User:Diannaa|Diannaa]] ([[User talk:Diannaa|talk]]) 01:41, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
-:::::::::If we said Himmler "took part in orchestrating the genocide", that wouldn't be an issue. However, I get the impression neither of you like that. [[User:Emiya1980|Emiya1980]] ([[User talk:Emiya1980|talk]]) 01:48, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
-::::::::::I believe we need to clearly emphasize the fact he was the main director of policy and main conduit (through the SS) of the murder and deaths that occurred; not just “took part”. I agree to your suggested wording, Diannaa and Emiya1980, to changing “Himmler” to “he” in the sentence. I await further input from others herein. [[User:Kierzek|Kierzek]] ([[User talk:Kierzek|talk]]) 02:13, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
-:::::::::::Kierzek's description is entirely correct. Himmler was a major perpetrator by being in charge of the SS—the single organization most responsible for the implementation of the Final Solution—and while one could argue signing authorizations or issuing orders is participation, it is not the same thing as "taking part" in an execution. For those of you who've read about Himmler, you know he had a weak constitution and no stomach for the violence himself. Stating he played a "major role in the Holocaust" is more than sufficient. One of the reasons that "orchestrating the genocide" is not necessarily appropriate either is that he left nearly all of that to subordinates like Eichmann, Pohl, Globocnik, and a host of other ghastly figures. --[[User:Obenritter|Obenritter]] ([[User talk:Obenritter|talk]]) 19:38, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
-::::::::::::So you would prefer "played a major role" rather than "directed", if I am understanding you correctly.  — [[User:Diannaa|Diannaa]] ([[User talk:Diannaa|talk]]) 20:57, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
-:::::::::::::How about we rephrase "a major role" as "a '''central''' role"? That would better reflect the lede paragraph's characterization of him as one of the "main architect[s]" of the Holocaust. [[User:Emiya1980|Emiya1980]] ([[User talk:Emiya1980|talk]]) 00:42, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
-::::::::::::::I prefer the word “central” over “major”, but in the end would agree to the latter word if that is consensus. To me “central” means main or predominant, being at the center of something. “Major” being more important or significant. Both would describe Himmler, but we should use one word here. [[User:Kierzek|Kierzek]] ([[User talk:Kierzek|talk]]) 15:06, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
-:::::::::::::::'''Central role''' would work nicely given his place in the hierarchy.--[[User:Obenritter|Obenritter]] ([[User talk:Obenritter|talk]]) 22:26, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
-:::::::::::::::{{ping|Diannaa}} Do you have any objections to saying Himmler had a "central" as opposed to a "major" role in the Holocaust?[[User:Emiya1980|Emiya1980]] ([[User talk:Emiya1980|talk]]) 23:42, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
-::::::::::::::::No objections.  — [[User:Diannaa|Diannaa]] ([[User talk:Diannaa|talk]]) 13:17, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
-::::::::::::::::I have implemented this change.  — [[User:Diannaa|Diannaa]] ([[User talk:Diannaa|talk]]) 13:53, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
-== Himmler's corpse ==
-While the body of Himmler was buried near Lüneburg if that grave was found it would not contain Himmler's body. Himmler's body was cremated after a second autopsy at the Hannover Military Hospital, there is ample evidence that this happened, you just have to look. There is even doubt over whether it was Himmler or a double [[Special:Contributions/175.39.57.180|175.39.57.180]] ([[User talk:175.39.57.180|talk]]) 09:37, 21 September 2024 (UTC)