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{{Top 25 report|Aug 15 2021}}
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{{Top 25 report|Aug 15 2021}}
== Government in exile? ==

The article [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Islamic_Republic_of_Afghanistan&oldid=1039035410 currently] states that Islamic Republic of Afghanistan continues to exist as a government in exile (also, the [[government in exile]] article [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Government_in_exile&oldid=1039019864 currently] does the same). However that claim does not seem to be supported by reliable sources. It seems be derived from the fact that the president is alive and fled to Tajikistan, and drawing that kind of conclusion seems to be [[WP:OR|original research]]. Reliable sources report that the government has collapsed, which seems to contradict the claim of continued existence, even as a government in exile. [[Special:Contributions/193.198.162.14|193.198.162.14]] ([[User talk:193.198.162.14|talk]]) 08:37, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
:Came here to say this. Ghani's own statement since leaving the country doesn't indicate any intention to form a government in exile, various officials of the Islamic Republic have referred to him as the 'former president', and there hasn't been any news yet about one being established. Wikipedia's jumping the gun. [[Special:Contributions/82.18.206.157|82.18.206.157]] ([[User talk:82.18.206.157|talk]]) 08:45, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
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:it is de facto Government in exile [[User:Mhatopzz|Mhatopzz]] ([[User talk:Mhatopzz|talk]]) 15:19, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I came to comment on this as well, there is no indication that the IR exists in any form currently, nor is there any indication it will exist again in the future. --[[User:The Gentle Sleep|The Gentle Sleep]] ([[User talk:The Gentle Sleep|talk]]) 09:27, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm going to edit this out now [[User:IntUnderflow|IntUnderflow]] ([[User talk:IntUnderflow|talk]]) 10:42, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I had reverted this because the UN does not regconized it as most counrries stated that they would not recognize any government that is created by force. [[User:SpinnerLaserzthe2nd|SpinnerLaserzthe2nd]] ([[User talk:SpinnerLaserzthe2nd|talk]]) 14:57, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

{{ping|Mhatopzz}} AFAIK no government in exile has been formed (at least not yet). President [[Ashraf Ghani]] has been reported fleeing to the [[United States]], while it is unclear to what happened to other government officials.--[[User:Karma1998|Karma1998]] ([[User talk:Karma1998|talk]]) 16:02, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

:{{ping|SpinnerLaserzthe2nd}} Lack of recognition of the new government does not imply that the old one still exists in any form. Deriving the existence of one government from the lack of recognition of another one is a [[Non sequitur (fallacy)|non sequitur]]. [[Special:Contributions/176.62.32.5|176.62.32.5]] ([[User talk:176.62.32.5|talk]]) 18:15, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

::That's one intuitive argument, sure. The other, probably equally as natural in its own way, since the existence of a government in any context is a question open to subjective vagaries, is that if the members of an established government are recognized by other foreign states and international bodies, their mere existence in those roles after being driven into exile, via the transitive property, in fact that of an exiled government. I would say both sides of the disagreement here (completely polite though it has been--kudos and thank you) are [[begging the question]] in their assessment of this question to some degree, at least until the parties involved begin to make more concrete statements and the secondary sources begin to carry (and thus verify) said statements. There's been a lot of emphasis on the sources (rightly so), but I am not seeing much in the way of evidence here: like anyone who keeps up with the global news on a daily basis, or has a particular interest in human rights issues, I've parsed through a fair number of news pieces on the subject of this article in recent days, and I wasn't left with a particularly strong read on this question either way, nor have I seen the language in particular sources used in this article at present which made the conclusion certain.

::So I'd like to be convinced, or else my own inclination is towards a wait and see approach. To the best of my knowledge, this is a somewhat novel issue no group of editors on this project have had to work around as the events were unfolding--at least as regards this kind of continuity between states, with one toppling the other, rather than a splintering state or outside syncratic state--and we don't have precedent consensus to lean into when trying to determine how [[WP:WEIGHT]] bears out in a situation where the sources by and large have not even sought to address whether (and if so, in what a form) a government in exile might be constituted. I'm sympathetic to the argument that the more affirmative a statement to be cited to the sources, the higher the burden on that interpretation to be proven to be prevalent in the sourcing. But by the same token, here we have a situation where nobody (presented in the sourcing so far, anyway) has said that a government exile is not to be expected, and certainly sources are quite varied in how they are treating the underlying legitimacy of the government in the absence of actual control of the nation's sovereign territories.

::Anyway, all of this is my long-winded way of saying this doesn't seem at all simple/closed-and-shut, and I think some patience (per [[WP:CRYSTAL]]) has to be the guiding rule for the moment. Ultimately I think we are going to end up with language here which is highly attributed and reflecting a bevy of opinions, as the future of Afghanistan becomes a major topic of speculation, debate, and geopolitical realpolitik. For the present moment, I can live with either of the two interpretations mentioned above, but would like to see more sourcing to find the medium-term language, if you follow my meaning. ''[[User:Snow Rise|<b style="color:#19a0fd;">S</b><b style="color:#66c0fd">n</b><b style="color:#99d5fe;">o</b><b style="color:#b2dffe;">w</b><b style="color:#B27EB2;">Rise</b>]][[User talk:Snow Rise|<sup><b style="color:#d4143a"> let's rap</b></sup>]]'' 08:12, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

:So, does that means the Afghanistan IR already ceased to exist with no exiles? [[User:Mhatopzz|Mhatopzz]] ([[User talk:Mhatopzz|talk]]) 00:51, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
::There does not seem to be anything in reliable sources supporting the assertion of its continued existence. On the other hand, reliable sources report that it has collapsed. In this situation, stating that it still exists (in exile or otherwise) would be [[WP:OR]] and it would be like stating that there is a [[Russell's teapot|certain teapot]] in space. [[Special:Contributions/193.198.162.14|193.198.162.14]] ([[User talk:193.198.162.14|talk]]) 08:11, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

I think there are not enough reliable sources yet to talk about a government in exile. Therefore, the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan should be referred as a former country that ceased to exist.
A tweet from the ex president shouldn’t be considered as a source. [[User:Gonzaloges|Gonzaloges]] ([[User talk:Gonzaloges|talk]]) 17:47, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

This should be removed per the situation with [[Tibet (1912–1951)|Tibet]] as technically the [[Dalai Lama]] is the head of government in exile. There are also not enough sources as pointed out above about a government in exile. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 04:45, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Based on this discussion I'm going to remove this line from the infobox, feel free to raise if you think I'm mistaken [[User:IntUnderflow|IntUnderflow]] ([[User talk:IntUnderflow|talk]]) 22:11, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Hey folks, I'm also removing the reference to in-exile from the top bar of the article, as again feel free to raise if you think I've got it wrong and we can discuss :) [[User:IntUnderflow|IntUnderflow]] ([[User talk:IntUnderflow|talk]]) 19:38, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

== Amrullah Saleh claims presidency ==

[https://twitter.com/AmrullahSaleh2/status/1427631191545589772 First VP Amrullah Saleh is claiming to be the legitimate president]. Might be worth keeping tabs on. [[Special:Contributions/82.18.206.157|82.18.206.157]] ([[User talk:82.18.206.157|talk]]) 14:09, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
: Yes and although he has claimed that and has joined with the Panjshir resistance, I'm not sure he should yet be listed as acting president in the article. I don't think any official statement has come out from the IRA acknowledging his claim. [[User:Not logged in 2|Not logged in 2]] ([[User talk:Not logged in 2|talk]]) 01:24, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
::I am not seeing any sources acknowledging that Saleh is the legitimate president. I found one article citing this claim, (See https://www.france24.com/en/asia-pacific/20210818-in-panjshir-last-free-region-in-afghanistan-saleh-claims-caretaker-presidency) but none supporting nations are recognizing him as president. [[User:Jurisdicta|Jurisdicta]] ([[User talk:Jurisdicta|talk]]) 04:13, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
:::Jurisdicta, please see this for example, which is from the official site of the National Resistance Front in Panjshir: https://www.nrfafg.org/leadership [[User:Not logged in 2|Not logged in 2]] ([[User talk:Not logged in 2|talk]]) 14:52, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

== Lede section ==

{{ping|A.h. king}} "Internationally recognized state" is a wildly misleading description. There isn't a state to even talk to anymore, just a government-in-exile that it isn't clear is even asserting claimed control of the country any more. So "former state" is far more accurate - it used to be a state, but currently exists only in exile / theory. For the international orgs, that wasn't removed from the article, just the lede section, but it just isn't that important. Who exactly is paying all the diplomats and representatives to the UN now? Certainly not the Afghan Republic. And why would any international orgs give these reps the time of day when they don't have any power? Now, to be sure, the Taliban government is NOT internationally recognized (either), but any international recognition that old Afghanistan has is pro-forma because nobody's updated the membership list yet. In the unusual situation of some sort of PRC / Taiwan break in the future where there is clearly one state that has certain international legitimacy and another state with a different international legitimacy status and they each rule at least some territory, fine, we'll come to that later, but that's just not the situation anymore. A state, by definition, rules a territory, and the Republic currently doesn't, much to everyone's sorrow. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] ([[User talk:SnowFire|talk]]) 21:27, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
:I'd say that's a fairly straight-forward and rational analysis, but there also exists the caveat that it's going to be necessary to give the sourcing at least a few days before you should anticipate elements of those points being expressly stated in their voice. I don't know which approach is the original, or if there have been reversions on this question already, but I'd urge both sides to leave the current version in place temporarily as the corpus of the sources developes on this question. On a meta-commentary matter quite aside from the content issue here, warm greetings to you, my fellow SnowNoun. Should we develop a secret handshake and a charter for the social club? :) ''[[User:Snow Rise|<b style="color:#19a0fd;">S</b><b style="color:#66c0fd">n</b><b style="color:#99d5fe;">o</b><b style="color:#b2dffe;">w</b><b style="color:#B27EB2;">Rise</b>]][[User talk:Snow Rise|<sup><b style="color:#d4143a"> let's rap</b></sup>]]'' 07:04, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
The government isn't in exile, it controls territory in Afghanistan still. --[[User:Sailor Ceres|Sailor Ceres]] ([[User talk:Sailor Ceres|talk]]) 04:56, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
:Per the IP address comment below - do you think that Wikipedia was in error when it referred to the Emirate as a "former state" from 2001-2021? The Taliban controlled far more territory during that period than the tiny remnant the resistance has right now, and the remaining resistance has very little to do with the structure of the government even 3 months ago - it's essentially a group that has taken up the banner of the cause, but none of the ministries / officials / etc. The government-as-of-three-months-ago really is in exile or has resigned / quit. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] ([[User talk:SnowFire|talk]]) 17:05, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

:No, it wasn't an error, because the government of Afghanistan had been formed in 2001. At this point, negotiations are still ongoing between the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan (Hamid Karzai and Abdullah Abdullah their main negotiators) and the Taliban with respect to forming a new government. The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan is still a governmental entity despite having lost the vast majority of its territory including its capital and despite its president being in the UAE. [[User:Not logged in 2|Not logged in 2]] ([[User talk:Not logged in 2|talk]]) 01:07, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

== Former Country or Alive? ==

Here it is written that "...Afghanistan was a country...", but they still have one small stronghold in Panjshir Province. So doesn't that mean that the IR. Afghanistan is still " alive" with some territory? [[User:GucciNuzayer|GucciNuzayer]] ([[User talk:GucciNuzayer|talk]]) 08:41, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
:An analogy: It seems that [[Panjshir resistance]] is to [[Islamic Republic of Afghanistan]] (after the [[2021 Taliban offensive|Taliban offensive]]) what the [[Taliban]] were to [[Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan]] (after the [[United States invasion of Afghanistan|US invasion]]). The resistance may seek to reestablish the IRA, just like the Taliban reestablished the IEA, but they are not quite the same thing. They could be considered as remnants of the former country but that is not the same as ''being'' that same country. [[Special:Contributions/193.198.162.14|193.198.162.14]] ([[User talk:193.198.162.14|talk]]) 12:21, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
:I'm not quite sure that analogy is correct. Hamid Karzai, Abdullah Abdullah and other officials are currently negotiating on behalf of the IRA with the IEA with respect to the formation of the new government. The IRA still exists as an entity; it has simply lost the vast majority of its territory. The Panjshir resistance is made up of members of the IRA including its former vice president, but these are members who have obviously split off from the negotiations the IRA is doing, so the connection at this point seems rather loose? [[User:Not logged in 2|Not logged in 2]] ([[User talk:Not logged in 2|talk]]) 01:22, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

== Amrullah Saleh is the acting president of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan? ==

Has the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan acknowledged that Saleh is its acting president? I have not seen anything official in that regard. I have additionally seen speculation that his self declaration is throwing a monkey wrench into the negotiations over the new government. [[User:Not logged in 2|Not logged in 2]] ([[User talk:Not logged in 2|talk]]) 01:31, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
:To answer my own question, with the defense minister joining in, sure looks like it's official that yes, he is the acting president: https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/world/panjshir-flies-flag-of-resistance-again-amrullah-says-he-is-president-of-afghanistan-298553 [[User:Not logged in 2|Not logged in 2]] ([[User talk:Not logged in 2|talk]]) 01:49, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

== Lead ==

Lead could use some work. I see a lot of [[WP:RECENT]]. 4 of the 5 paragraphs are about the recent collapse, rather than summarizing the article. Surely this government did a lot over the course of 20 years that is worth summarizing in the lead. In particular, the paragraph starting with "On 17 August" doesn't seem to say much and can probably be replaced with other content or removed. –[[User:Novem Linguae|<span style="color:limegreen">'''Novem Linguae'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Novem Linguae|talk]])</small> 10:11, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

== The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan *is* (not was) an Islamic republic that governed... ==


== Ruled Afghanistan ==
The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan still exists, in Panjshir, where its acting president, defense minister, and other officials are. Use of the word "was" is definitely not accurate. It has not surrendered yet nor has it dissolved. [[User:Not logged in 2|Not logged in 2]] ([[User talk:Not logged in 2|talk]]) 01:53, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
:This is a scope issue. This page is about the Republic as it was from 2004 to the Fall of Kabul. [[Panjshir resistance]] is where the current iteration should be discussed. [[User:BSMRD|BSMRD]] ([[User talk:BSMRD|talk]]) 02:09, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
::The lead and infobox describe an entity that still exists, though. It makes sense to say {{xt|The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan is an Islamic republic that governed Afghanistan between 2004 and 2021 during the War in Afghanistan.}} That's factually correct; it conveys that it still exists in some form, while also conveying that it ''formerly'' governed most of the country. "Was" is factually incorrect and doesn't square with the rest of the lead or the infobox. ―&nbsp;[[User:Tartan357|<span style="color:#990000">'''''Tartan357'''''</span>]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Tartan357|<span style="color:#224434">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 04:12, 25 August 2021 (UTC)


Redid the lede again to stop these stupid edit wars: "The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan controlled an Islamic republic that existed between 2004 and 2021 during the War in Afghanistan." Simple enough, right? We can all agree on that? [[User:Not logged in 2|Not logged in 2]] ([[User talk:Not logged in 2|talk]]) 14:50, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
I'm not sure what this article means by saying that the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan was a republic that ruled "Afghanistan". It was Afghanistan [[Special:Contributions/2A02:C7C:4C89:3C00:B8BE:DAA5:D029:F0C4|2A02:C7C:4C89:3C00:B8BE:DAA5:D029:F0C4]] ([[User talk:2A02:C7C:4C89:3C00:B8BE:DAA5:D029:F0C4|talk]]) 14:54, 4 November 2023 (UTC)


== Satellite state? ==
== Kabul coordinates ==


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Hi. The coordinates of Kabul are incorrect. [[User:Aminabzz|Aminabzz]] ([[User talk:Aminabzz|talk]]) 13:55, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Someone added that this government was a satellite of the US and that seems just a little bit biased. ICommandeth 23:24, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
:This wasn't my addition, but I don't see how it's not. [[User:Lord ding dong|Lord ding dong]] ([[User talk:Lord ding dong|talk]]) 00:35, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 13:55, 14 August 2024

Ruled Afghanistan

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I'm not sure what this article means by saying that the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan was a republic that ruled "Afghanistan". It was Afghanistan 2A02:C7C:4C89:3C00:B8BE:DAA5:D029:F0C4 (talk) 14:54, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Kabul coordinates

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Hi. The coordinates of Kabul are incorrect. Aminabzz (talk) 13:55, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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