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==Bad example removed==
== Fallacy ==
"Since 88% of the people polled believed in UFOs, they must exist." Now, while the dumbed-down definition of UFO is "extra-terrestial spaceship", the usual definition is unidentified flying object. While it is true that argumentum ad populum is not a good argument for the existence of such things (eg. any object that is flying and is unidentified), that example just doesn't fit in. [[User:Ran4|Ran4]] ([[User talk:Ran4|talk]]) 22:55, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


Is it really possible to say that Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy while most of the values we accept as a society are indeed "Argumentum ad populum"? --[[User:Comrade-yutyo|Comrade-yutyo]] ([[User talk:Comrade-yutyo|talk]]) 12:08, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
Why is this not a legitimate example? "Evolution is an indisputable fact since the majority of all intelligent scientists believe in it." It is an example of argumentum ad populum because the speaker is appealing to the fact that many scientists believe in evolution as a proof that it is true. [[User:Joshuajohnson555|Joshuajohnson555]] ([[User talk:Joshuajohnson555|talk]]) 05:32, 28 April 2011 (UTC)


:Yes. A majority of people believing something is good or true doesn't make it ethical or correct. [[User:Germanater09|Germanater09]] ([[User talk:Germanater09|talk]]) 00:43, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
:I'm no logician. But isn't there a difference between "X must be true, because virtually all the random yahoos who roam this planet believe it to be true" and "X must be true, because virtually all of the learned men who have spend careers carefully studying this with precision instruments believe it to be true"? I mean, I believe that the Earth orbits the Sun, but I myself have never analyzed Kepler's tables and so forth to prove this to my own satisfaction. I don't much care what my neighbors believe about it. But all astronomers believe it (and I trust them, with, I think, good reason). Am I unreasonable to believe that the Earth orbits the Sun based solely on this evidence? [[User:Herostratus|Herostratus]] ([[User talk:Herostratus|talk]]) 06:15, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
::See [https://wuzzy.neocities.org/comic/677/ here]. --[[User:Hob Gadling|Hob Gadling]] ([[User talk:Hob Gadling|talk]]) 05:23, 28 June 2023 (UTC)


== ad UNpopularity? ==
::Lots of people saying or believing something (no matter who those people are) does not make it true. Sure, if lots of "intelligent" people believed in something, it might make you more likely to believe them, but it is not proof that it is true. I'd say that is an example of appeal to popularity if they didn't provide any further evidence and stated that the fact that a lot of so-called intelligent people believe in evolution, it must be absolutely true. While there are better examples, I wouldn't say that that isn't an example at all. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/68.60.76.162|68.60.76.162]] ([[User talk:68.60.76.162|talk]]) 03:03, 18 June 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


Is there a name for the opposite? ie "No one agrees with X." [[User:StephanNaro|StephanNaro]] ([[User talk:StephanNaro|talk]]) 07:00, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
:::You are mischaracterising your example. People generally do not "believe" in evolution as an article of religious faith, they ''accept'' it as supported by (and adequately explaining) the evidence ([[genetics]], [[biogeography]], [[palaeontology]], etc) and by expert opinion. Contrast this with [[Creationism]] (particularly [[Young Earth creationism]]) which is accepted as a matter of religious faith by many people, in spite of the fact that it conflicts with (and fails to explain) much of this evidence, and is rejected by the overwhelming majority of relevant experts. <font face="Antiqua, serif">''[[User:Hrafn|Hrafn]]<sup>[[User talk:Hrafn|Talk]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Hrafn|Stalk]]</sub><sup>''('''[[M:Precisionism|P]]''')</sup></font> 04:28, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

==An incomprehensible sentence==
"The argument that because 75% of people polled think the answer is A implies that the answer is A fails for if opinion did determine truth, there be no way to deal with the discrepancy between the 75% of the sample population that believe the answer is A and 25% who are of the opinion that the answer is not A." <---------- This sentence is nonsensical. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/58.174.49.225|58.174.49.225]] ([[User talk:58.174.49.225|talk]]) 09:11, 31 October 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Negative Justification==
This article gives examples that allow fallacious justification of arguments based on the common beliefs of the masses. Would chastizing someone for doing something unconventional or counter to the conventional belief also be considered argumentum ad populum? For instance: "You believe in wearing white after Labor Day? Who does that? Nobody does that!" Weak example, but while it includes ridicule and invective, it also suggests a person is "wrong" for going against conventional practice. So is this argumentum ad populum or am I off base? [[Special:Contributions/98.221.133.96|98.221.133.96]] ([[User talk:98.221.133.96|talk]]) 22:59, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

...or to clarify, this page seems to suggest "everyone else is doing it, so you should to" defines argumentum ad populum. What about "nobody does what you're doing, therefore you're wrong," is that also argumentum ad populum, appealing to what a person is NOT doing rather than what they should be doing in line with conventional practice? [[Special:Contributions/98.221.133.96|98.221.133.96]] ([[User talk:98.221.133.96|talk]]) 23:02, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

==Merge==
Redundant articles were merged (copied) here as per discussion at [[Talk:Bandwagon fallacy]]. [[User:Shawnc|Shawnc]] 21:30, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

==Exceptions==
This section is presumptive and illogical. Appeal to Popularity is always a fallacy. Democracy does not obviate this, it merely makes the fallacy irrelevant by defining law as judgmental rather than objective. The vast majority may enact law that must be followed, but the vast majority may be wrong. This applies to all scales of democracy. A politicized 5-4 decision from the Supreme Court can be as wrong as an 80% result in a referendum. There are however theories on how democracies can remain stable even though their basis for imposition of policy is a fallacy. See [[Approval Voting]]. I'll probably edit this article to make more sense sometime soon, if nobody else takes care of it. [[User:24.221.121.232|24.221.121.232]] 04:29, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I've changed the lead and the Exceptions section. I have barely looked at the sections in the middle. They may need to be updated to be consistent with the sections I've changed (and then the sections I've changed may need some adjustment to remain consistent with the entire article). The crank has been turned. More later. [[User:216.237.179.238|216.237.179.238]] 19:38, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

:one thing i'd like to do is replace all of the examples with cited ones rather than invented ones; just something to consider from an encyclopedic POV. [[User:216.237.179.238|216.237.179.238]] 19:43, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

::I am in favor of using only cited examples. [[User:Shawnc|Shawnc]] 15:38, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

i like the way this page is turning out. i took out the bit on nazi germany and replaced it with a link, i hope you dont mind. also the part that i wrote on the [[law of large numbers]] may be stretching that idea a bit too far. Lastly, does anyone know if its possible to get the 'contents' window to align beside the alias list? [[User:Spencerk|Spencerk]] 04:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

: I did more cleanup. I moved the aliases to their own section to get the Contents up closer to where it should be. The lead may be thin, but it's apt, so I'll leave it as-is. [[User:216.237.179.238|216.237.179.238]] 23:26, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

The Inductive reasoning paragraph appears irrelevant to this article. If it was trying to make a connection between argumentum ad numerum and ad populum, I failed to see it. Also this last sentence lost me completly:
''Although Argumentum ad populum makes few concessions about the relationship between truth and widespread acceptence, according to the Law of large numbers, as the sample population gets bigger, truth becomes more likely.''
It needs a cite. What concessions does it make? Is the truth mentioned that of the belief being measured? If not the sentence make no sense to me. -[[User:213.219.186.69|213.219.186.69]] 15:46, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with this example:

"Safety

Whether to follow a tenet decided by popularity rather than logical design may be a matter of safety or convenience:

* "Nearly all Americans think that you should drive on the right side of the road. Therefore, you should drive on the right side of the road in the United States."
"

It is not the case that you should drive on the right side of the road in America "because most Americans think you should", you should drive on the right side of the road in America because not doing so is likely to result in your death or serious bodily harm. These are two very different arguments. [[User:88.105.250.223|88.105.250.223]] 19:16, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

:I agree with this. Argumentum ad populum in this context would be using popular opinion to argue against objective points about safety, efficiency, etc.; however the fact that most Americans drive on the right side of the road is itself an objective point against driving on the left (if you drive on the left you risk crashing). It's not argumentum ad populum to make this argument. [[User:Blankfrackis|Blankfrackis]] ([[User talk:Blankfrackis|talk]]) 14:03, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Is it an example of this fallacy to cite popularity of an opinion amongst a group if that group is arguably qualified to have unbiased opinions on the subject? I'm uncomfortable with calling it a fallacy to say "Evolution is probably true because most scientists agree that it is". Opinions? [[User:129.31.77.89|129.31.77.89]] 23:30, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

: Sorry, that was me- thought I was logged in. :) -[[User:Ifitmovesnukeit|Ifitmovesnukeit]] 23:32, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
::That's an interesting point, but the statement as it stands *is* actually fallacious. See, it may not be disingenuous to cite general scientific opinion when trying to convince someone that a thing is true, but "most scientists agree that it is" is not a reason to believe the proposition "Evolution is probably true." That's precisely the fallacy. To avoid the fallacy, you need to refer to *science* itself, and the evidence and studies accumulated therein, and say "Evolution is probably true because most evidence accumulated by scientists indicates that it is." The scientists don't make it right, the science does. [[User:70.100.84.55|70.100.84.55]] 03:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

== E ==

Can anyone think of a synonym for "alias" that begins with 'e'? Because all of the other section headings do... --[[User:216.237.179.238|216.237.179.238]] 18:47, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
:That's just a coincidence. [[User:Shawnc|Shawnc]] 23:51, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
::Yes it is a coincedence, but you fail to adress the point completely. [[User:Philc_0780|<font color="Green">Philc</font>]] 20:16, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
::::Words include epithet, eponym, euonym, ___ (adjective) name. [[Special:Contributions/58.174.49.225|58.174.49.225]] ([[User talk:58.174.49.225|talk]]) 09:15, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

== Inductive reasoning ==

"However, due to the nature of probability, even statistics may accidentally measure a rare outcome rather than the norm, and unconditional reliance on statistics is therefore fallacious."

:This doesn't really belong here. Moreover, it's a vague, spurious charge which can be levelled against any kind of indutive reasoning. If the above statement is taken, then almost all science can be disregarded, because it relies on inductive reasoning and statistics. The reasons why an "unconditional reliance on statistics" might be fallacious have to do with inappropriate use of statistical methods or incompetent use, not statistics itself. [[User:Revolver|Revolver]] 22:47, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

::It may be out of place, but is is undeniably correct. It does not say that science can be disregarded; only that one should not rely unconditionally on science.--[[User:Noe|Niels Ø]] 23:41, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
:::How is it correct?? It does NOT say that "one should not rely unconditionally on science". It says that conclusions reached via statistical methods should be suspect because of some vague spurious claims about the nature of probability. [[User:Revolver|Revolver]] 10:49, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
::::Well one should not unconditionally trust science. Science has proved its own theories wrong many times in the past. Theoretically science may some day have find the truth and all research, but I really doubt. Since science is still imperfect it only makes sense not to trust it ''completely'' -- im3w1l
:::Did you read what I said?? This charge can be levelled against ANY TYPE OF INDUCTIVE REASONING. It is not a general disclaimer on over-reliance on science, taking it at face value would mean throwing away almost ALL of science. [[User:Revolver|Revolver]] 10:51, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
::Well, I guess there is no point in debating this, as I agree that the sentence in question does not belong in the article.--[[User:Noe|Niels Ø]] 18:08, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
:::Okay, fine. I just find it strange (or perhaps, after the laughingstocks of the AIDS articles, predictable) that such nonsense finds its way into articles here. The whole POINT of statistics is to provide a mathematical way to deal with "rare outcomes", or to make inferences based on incomplete knowledge. You might as well say, "Math is fallacious because it's based on proof". [[User:Revolver|Revolver]] 03:11, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

== The evidence section is confusing ==

The last example suggests that the pro-slavery lobby might have used the argument from majority, but this is 'disproven' by... "''yet few Americans today would consider it ethical''". Surely that's a pure ''Argumentum ad populum'' committed by Wikipedia in it's own ''Argumentum ad populum'' definition. The reasoning in all these examples looks a little weak to me, they mostly reject the majority of public opinion for the majority of 'expert' opinion. Specific 'good' reasons aren't given in any of these arguments, we are simply reporting the bias of a sample survey.

==100% Appeal?==
If 100% of people present, and past, have felt "''something''," does "''something''" exist? ~ [[User:UBeR|UBeR]]

:Not strictly necessarily. [[User:Doremítzwr|Raifʻhār Doremítzwr]] 20:45, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

:No consider this, if Yuri Gagarin had come back from space, adamant that the moon appears as square from space, he is the only person to have been to space at this point, so just because he was 100% of the people who have had the chance to experience this, and claimed to have done so, doesn't make his claim any more credible. <span style="border:1px solid #696969;background:#DCDCDC; padding:1px">[[User:Philc_0780|<span style="color:#696969;font-weight:bold">ΦΙΛ Κ</span>]]</span> 15:10, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

==Brad Pitt example==
Looks are subjective. If most people subjectively vote him the most attractive male. It is a Fact.


:It would not be a fact. It would merely be a common opinion. The fact would be that most people thought that Pitt was the most attractive. [[User:71.102.134.129|71.102.134.129]] 10:39, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

== Scientists ==

"However, science works by evidence, not popular vote." — The refereeing process for publication is essentially a voting system. To a larger extent than is commonly acknowledged, the number of people making claims about evidence is important. Let us not make the mistake of misconstruing what science is with what it would ideally be. [[User:71.102.134.129|71.102.134.129]] 10:37, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
:sorry, but this is completely false. Science does not work on a popular vote basis, because the evidence would not permit that. If we are talking about a hypothesis like "The Copenhagen Interpretation" of QM, we're not talking about science, but of "would be science". String Theory is another example. Because many physicists like this theory, it does not make it true, so it's not science. We cannot vote it to be true, and at the beginning or end of each article discussing this kind of hypothesis, you are told that "no scientific evidence has yet been found to prove or disprove it"...it's just one step further from a speculation.

That is a very sad but good point. The Copenhagen Interpretation of "Quantum Physics" being perhaps the most successful modern cases of them all. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/87.254.76.233|87.254.76.233]] ([[User talk:87.254.76.233|talk]]) 22:46, 5 November 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Irony ==

An article on wikipedia that admits argument by consensus is fallicious. [[User:Philc_0780|<font color="Green">Philc</font>]] 20:18, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

: Hahaha! [[User:ThVa|ThVa]] ([[User talk:ThVa|talk]]) 02:40, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

== Global Warming as evidence example? ==

I think that the example with Global Warming should be removed as example. With all the evidence of Global Warming caused by Greenhouse gases, I don't think that this article will be taken seriously if this is included.

Remove that pseudoscientific bullshit! <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:85.228.48.56|85.228.48.56]] ([[User talk:85.228.48.56|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/85.228.48.56|contribs]]){{#if:{{{2|}}}|&#32;{{{2}}}}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
:I concur that it should be removed and have done so. --[[User:TeaDrinker|TeaDrinker]] 22:40, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually I think it was a good example, because it demonstrates that it is entirely possible to reach a correct conclusion through reasoning that is nonetheless invalid. On the other hand, I oppose using controversial issues in examples at all, so it might as well stay off.[[User:Pusher robot|Pusher robot]] 23:08, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I think its very ironic that Global Warming has been removed. I have always doubted the connection between Global Warming and pollution, and I think its deeply ironic that even in an encyclopedia definition of Argumentum ad populum, it prevails, as seen above.
"The important thing is to never stop questioning" -Albert Einstein.
Note: I must say, the examples list is none the less superb, very well done to the person/people who compiled it.

== Morality exception ==

I think that argument stated in the example is sort of an exception. The reason Vietnam was immoral was because most people thought it was. Because people dictate morals. This statement could very well be true.
:But have they been informed on the situation to an extent that they can make an educated decision on it. For example killing is morally wrong, but is killing one man to save thousands still morally wrong? In which case the people making the decision not only have to define their morals, but be fully educated in line with the events in order to compare to their morals, what happened. Basically I don't think that just because people have an opinion on something that it means they have considered it to the extent that their opinion is valid or even consistent. <span style="border:1px solid #696969;background:#DCDCDC; padding:1px">[[User:Philc_0780|<span style="color:#696969;font-weight:bold">ΦΙΛ Κ</span>]]</span> 11:17, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

== Wikipedia is entirely constructed by appeal to concencus, yet we describe the method here from an intensely negative POV. ==

The POV on this article on the 'fallacy' is entirely negative, which can't possibly be consistent given where it's written & how Wikipedia defines what should appear in an article.

This article appears to be covering the [[rhetorical]] tactic in general, not merely as an invalid appeal to numbers. Wikipedia also has articles on [[Consensus decision-making]] and [[Proportional representation]], etc, but they aren't covering the [[Epistemology|epistomoligical]] dimension of the argument, which is here presented from an entirely negative POV.

Beyond [[Wikipedia]] itself, some less negative examples of "truth by committee" are:

* The [[global warming]] debate this millenium has revolved around counting the number of scientists on either side. (See for example: [[Scientific opinion on climate change]] & [[List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming]].)
* In terms of [[decision making]], see [[The wisdom of crowds]], or a host of evidence that a survey of the ignorant ''can'' outperform the rational analysis or the expert (thus, under some polling conditions, Argumentum ad populum should be more convincing than a detailed & rational expert report).
* In mathematics, the [[Clay prize]] specifies not only that the proof must be logically correct, but that it must be "generally accepted" by the mathematical community within 2 years of publication. Throughout science, the defense of [[paradigm]]s, tends to be given in terms of wide practicioner acceptance (often from an elite group, but sometimes by popular poll - see for example: [[2006 definition of planet]]).

It's very [[hypocritical]] for an encyclopedia built on concencus to trash '''Argumentum ad populum'''. Furthermore, if we don't have NPOV in this article we create the [[paradox]] that the article's insistence that "truth can't be derived from a concencus" would be fallacious ''if it is true'' (as given by an encyclopedia entirely constructed from Argumentum ad populum).

--[[User:Wragge|Wragge]] 12:39, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Wikipedia is built ''with'' consensus, but not ''on'' consensus, thus the need for citing references, which themselves should have some means of independent verification.

That citation tends to be so sporadic is not indicative of any particular nature of Wikipedia, other than that it's young; rather, it's perfectly normal for collaborative efforts involving such massive amounts of data to take significantly lengthy amounts of time to compile into a cohesive and verifiable fashion.

On a completely related note, I'd recommend that the "The philosophical question of moral relativism asks whether such arguments apply to statements of morals." statement in the Social Convention section be moved somewhere more logical. As it is now, at the bottom, the sentence tries introducing a fact that the previous three sentences just spent explaining. [[User:Alexis Brooke M|Alexis Brooke M]] ([[User talk:Alexis Brooke M|talk]]) 04:36, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

: [[User:Alexis Brooke M|Alexis Brooke M]] is right; Wikipedia doesn't typically rely on an argument from concencus anymore (except the common agreement to respect citations of peer-reviewed journals). Therefore, I'd like to reduce my call for [[WP:NPOV]] simply to that, without bringing Wikipedia's policies into it. I think I've listed a few examples (off the top of my head) where Argumentum ad populum would be a good argument, so why the negative tone throughout this article? Also, Aap is a real time-saver. --[[User:Wragge|Wragge]] ([[User talk:Wragge|talk]]) 05:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

== Inverse ==

Is there an inverse fallacy to Argumentum ad populam (for example, someone claims that 'everyone else believes x, therefore y must be true', I'm thinking along the lines of conspiracy theorists or people who don't trust common consensus)? -[[User:Albrozdude|albrozdude]] ([[User talk:Albrozdude|talk]]) 19:50, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

== Section on Social convention ==

I'm afraid that author of this section has deliberately wrote it in tongue-in-cheek manner - the [[http://www.siberianlight.net/2007/10/12/kissing-policemen-bring-shame-to-russia/ | widely-known-in-public-ban]] is good illustration :) [[User:Silpol|silpol]] ([[User talk:Silpol|talk]]) 18:55, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

== Allusions to another fallacies: What be this 'un? ==

RE: "Every society but ours believed in magic; why should we think otherwise?" "Every society but ours thought the sun revolved about the Earth, rather than the other way round. Would you decide the matter by majority vote?" - Isaac Asimov.

I, personally, have never seen "every society but ours believed that magic works" (nitpick: magic is a practice one engages in, like prayer, not a substance one believes upon, like ether; there is no question as to whether it exists, only whether it works) as an argument for believing in the efficacy of magic. What I ''have'' seen, is "every society but ours believed that magic works" as a response to statements like, "if magic really worked, why do so few people believe in it?" I've seen this right here on Wikipedia.

{Almost?) invariably, as was even the case with an example right here on Wikipedia, specifically the [[magic (paranormal)]] talk page, the person who said "if magic really worked, why do so few people believe in it?", most often a self-prophesed "skeptic", when confronted with the response, "every society but ours believed that magic works", puts the words "why should we think otherwise?" into the mouth of the person he's arguing with, and follows with something equivalent to the aforequoth Isaac Asimov quote.

I realize that, in this example, the one who originally committed the bandwagon fallacy — and, in fact, the only one to commit the bandwagon fallacy — is the so-called "skeptic", with his "if magic really worked, why do so few people believe in it?" being simply another assemblage for the semantically nigh-identic "hardly anyone believes that magic works; why should we think otherwise?" (sometimes the "skeptic" combines the bandwagon fallacy with the [[argument from authority]] by phrasing it more like, "if magic really worked, why are there no text books in schools about it?" or "if magic really worked, why doesn't every physicist in the world know about it/believe in it?"). And, in this example, it is the non-skeptic who argues against the fallacy in an ironic manner by pointing out that "every society but ours believed that magic works" whilst knowing that the "skeptic" will, in formulating his counter-argument, be forced to admit that his appeal to consensus was fallacious. By putting the words "why should we think otherwise?" into the mouth of the non-skeptic, the so-called "skeptic" isn't just in denial about the non-skeptic confronting him about the bandwagon fallacy, and isn't just [[straw-man argument|attacking a straw-man]] by responding to something the non-skeptic never even said, but this intellectually dishonest (or simply dim-witted) wannabe "skeptic" is attacking his opponent for committing a bandwagon fallacy that he didn't commit while at the same time refusing to admit he committed a bandwagon fallacy himself, essentially shifting his own fallacy onto the one with whom he's arguing. Is not this shifting a fallacy in itself? Or, being intentional, is it something more sinister? Is there a term for this? --[[User:Þorstejnn|<font color = "#008000">'''''Þórrstejn'' '''[<span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA">ˡθoɝ.staɪʲn</span>]''':''' </font><font color = "#CD853F">'''Hammer of Thor'''</font>]] [[User_talk:Þorstejnn|<font color = "#800000"><sup>'''''talk'''''</sup></font>]] 17:33, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

== Explanation ==

The second paragraph within this section seems to suggest some correlation between the statistics of belief in something, and the likelihood of it being true.

<blockquote>
If for instance, a logical proof that the answer is A attempted to make the argument that 75% of people polled think the answer is A, there is a 25% chance that the answer is not A.
</blockquote>

This itself seems to be a logical fallacy. The belief in something has no impact on its statistical likelihood: The world is just as 'likely' to be flat if 1% of people believe it as 99%. The above example, of a 25% chance of the answer not being A, would only be correct if the question inherently had a 25% chance of not being A. For example the question "will this coin land on heads twice, if I flip it twice?" If answer A is 'No', then statistically speaking, there is a 25% chance that the correct answer will not be A. However, this is not a causal relationship, and the connection between the numbers is merely coincidental. It is also not applicable to arguing about fact as, by definition, facts are constant and pre-determined. Thus, if there is a red ball under a hat, everyone in the world could believe it was blue, but this would still not change the colour of the ball.

I believe that bringing statistics and chance into it is over-complex and misleading. Leaving the paragraph at the following would be much clearer, perhaps with an example either hypothetical like the ball under a hat above, or a real world example such as historical belief in Earth being flat.

<blockquote>
It is logically fallacious because the mere fact that a belief is widely held is not necessarily a guarantee that the belief is correct; if the belief of any individual can be wrong, then the belief held by multiple persons can also be wrong.
</blockquote>

[[User:Grimbles|Grimbles]] ([[User talk:Grimbles|talk]]) 02:43, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

== [[Theophobia]]? ==
This article says: "Since most of the world doesn't believe in God, God must not exist. - Theophobic point of view." Should that even be used at all? Look at what the article on Theophobia has to say: "The very idea of Theophobia is considered ludicrous by many different opinions, and is often considered a myth created by theists to insult and degrade Atheism and disbelief and criticism of religious practices." I sense '''very''' bad faith there. Can we please replace that word with something else? [[User:J0lt C0la|J0lt C0la]] ([[User talk:J0lt C0la|talk]]) 21:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
:Thank you to whomever fixed it. I should have been bold and done it myself. [[User:J0lt C0la|J0lt C0la]] ([[User talk:J0lt C0la|talk]]) 01:07, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

== Image Removed From Article ==
[[Image:'Are you in this' poster.jpg|thumb|[[World War I]] propaganda using argumentum ad populum: ''everyone else is involved in the war effort, so you should help too''.]]

Removed this image since this is a biased interpretation of the poster and not a good example of Argumentum Ad Populum.

== Is this really an example? ==

`Since citizens have to pay taxes and are ruled by the government, the state must be a judicial reasoned and rightful institution.'
... this doesn't look like an example of this at all. [[User:Dougmc|dougmc]] ([[User talk:Dougmc|talk]]) 19:24, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I was about to say the same thing. This has nothing to do with argumentum ad populum. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/138.217.158.177|138.217.158.177]] ([[User talk:138.217.158.177|talk]]) 12:50, 11 February 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Nazi Germany not a valid example==
The Nazi Party never received the majority vote,(the highest percentage being 43.9%). The consensus gentium did not arise from democracy but an authoritarian regime. It is debated whether the majority of the populace ever fully supported the Nazi Party.

== capitalism exception ==

<blockquote>
"A product sells very well. Therefore, the product is considered a good product."
</blockquote>

What an useless example. For starters, the keyword here is "considered". Not to mention the word "good". - [[User:Nearfar|Nearfar]] ([[User talk:Nearfar|talk]]) 05:03, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree completely. The worst of the muddy language is the phrase "superior product." According to what measure?

The market model assumes that consumers have freedom of choice, are rational, have all of the necessary information, and act in accordance with their incentives. If these things are true, then the best-selling product must be the best (in the sense of having the best ratio of utility to price.) If there is a fallacy here it is [[Appeal_to_consequences]] (The model assumes perfect information, freedom, rationality, etc; if the model accurately describes reality I will fully understand the market; it is desirable for me to understand the market; therefore the assumptions must be accurate)[[User:Staypuft9|Staypuft9]] ([[User talk:Staypuft9|talk]]) 22:14, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

== The world war II poster NOT a fallacy. ==

The World War II poster shown on this page says, "Are YOU in this?" showing pictures of other people helping for the war effort. The caption suggests that the poster is arguing that because other people are working for the war effort, you should too. That would be a fallacy, but it's a subjective and controversial interpretation of the poster which I think is unfair. I would argue that the poster is making a moral value judgment and it's argument would be the following:
* '''Premise 1:''' ''You should do your part for the war effort.'' (This is it's PREMISE, not it's conclusion!)
* '''Premise 2:''' ''"Your part" is at least as great as everybody else's.'' ([[Egalitarianism]] w00t w00t)
* '''Premise 3:''' ''Everybody else's part is significant.'' (as shown in the picture)
* '''Conclusion:''' ''"Your part" for the war effort is significant.''
* Only '''''then''''' does it ask rhetorically, "Are YOU in this?"

That is not a fallacy, it's a perfectly rational argument. It's not intended to establish the justice of the war to a skeptic but to remind committed patriotic people of their own convictions and principles. "Propoganda" is not nearly as dirty a word as we've made it out to be, it simply means anything that tries to be persuasive. And I'd appreciate less beating up on the guys who won world war II and gave you the freedom to make fun of them thanks. --[[Special:Contributions/134.193.112.62|134.193.112.62]] ([[User talk:134.193.112.62|talk]]) 06:33, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

== Democracy vs Ad Populum? ==

I'm not sure but there really ought to be some way to distinguish between the fallacy and the democratic argument that can take the following form:
* '''Premise 1:''' Our government should be a democracy, following the will of the people expressed by their votes.
* '''Premise 2:''' The people have voted to do X.
* '''Conclusion:''' Our government should do X.
That's a perfectly valid logical form. Socrates would disagree with the first premise, and Al Gore would disagree with the second, but neither could show that the reasoning is flawed. Another example:
* '''Premise 1:''' Only low-cost or high-quality products succeed in an open, competitive, free market.
* '''Premise 2:''' Brand X competes in an open, competitive, free marketplace. (usually unstated)
* '''Premise 3:''' Brand X products are remarkable successful.
* '''Conclusion:''' Brand X products must be low-cost or high-quality.
Another logically valid argument from popularity. How do we distinguish this from the fallacy? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/134.193.112.62|134.193.112.62]] ([[User talk:134.193.112.62|talk]]) 06:45, 9 December 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

In the Democracy section, the phrase "wrong wills" is used in the examples several times. I am unfamiliar with this plural construction, presumably referring to the free will of more than one person, and it sounds awkward. In what country is this a commonly understood expression?--[[User:Edgewise|Edgewise]] ([[User talk:Edgewise|talk]]) 02:05, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

== Removed example of ethics ==

I removed the following from the article in the "examples" section:

:The fallacy is commonly found in arguments over [[ethics]]:
:*Most people hold that [[infanticide]] is morally wrong. Therefore, infanticide is morally wrong.

There are moral/ethical viewpoints that hold that the above statement is true <i>by definition</i> (i.e., that majority opinion is the genesis of morality/ethics). Therefore, it can not be a fallacy to state this truth. --[[User:Dante Alighieri|Dante Alighieri]] | [[User talk:Dante Alighieri|Talk]] 22:44, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

== Spreading of various religious beliefs? ==

I found this statement in the lead to be humorous as it is the common argument among atheists: "All religion is part of an ''argumentum ad populum''; therefore, no one should follow religion." This would be ''[[petitio principii]]''. It is humorous to start an article about a fallacy with a different fallacy. The author's personal views of religion may be better expressed in a blog. There are countless substitutions which could be made for the phrase "spreading of various religious beliefs" such as "political campaigns," "solicitation for union membership," "science in general"[http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/08/science/08tier.html?_r=1]. We have all heard the argument that global warming is a fallacy ''argumentum ad populum'' among liberal scientists. It is telling that the author wished to single out religious beliefs for the article when there are plenty of other examples to choose from. Perhaps the examples given in the ancient Greek and Latin texts of the fallacy would be more appropriate rather than the personal beliefs of the author. [[User:Gx872op|Gx872op]] ([[User talk:Gx872op|talk]]) 16:08, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
*Exactly where in this article do you find these "telling" claims? It is obviously an ''argumentum ad populum'' claim that, because the majority of people believe in a higher power, it must be true. Why shouldn't that be listed as an example? I don't find anywhere in the article where it claims "therefore, no one should follow religion". That is your assumption. Also, it is "telling" that you used the phrase "liberal scientists". There are ''just'' scientists. The correct use of science should not have any bias, "liberal" or otherwise. --[[User:Thorwald|Thorwald]] ([[User talk:Thorwald|talk]]) 16:26, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

== Problems with the examples? ==

Several of the examples given are problematic in my opinion. Here are two that are pretty similar:
* Find me anyone who shares your preposterous notion that the Earth orbits the Sun!
* Everyone knows that the Earth is flat.
But no one would seriously make those statements, so they aren't good examples. Better would be:
* Find me anyone who shares your preposterous notion that the Sun orbits the Earth!
* Everyone knows that the Earth is round.
In these cases, the facts are correct, but the arguments specious. But then... how are these different from:
* Find me any astronomer who shares your preposterous notion that the Sun orbits the Earth!
* All cartographers know that the Earth is round.
Are these specious too?

Also:
* Everyone jaywalks here and as long as I look carefully, nothing will happen.
The person is not making the assertion "jaywalking is good". The person is either making the assertion "As a practical matter, the jaywalking laws are not enforced here" or "As a practical matter, it is safe to jaywalk here" (not sure which) and in this case his observation of the behavior of locals is a rational guide for behavior, I would think. [[User:Herostratus|Herostratus]] ([[User talk:Herostratus|talk]]) 13:56, 25 April 2011 (UTC)


Another bad example: "Google gives more hits when this spelling is applied, therefore this has to be the correct spelling." This is a matter of data, not opinion. If this is an example of a logical fallacy, then any study that collected data could be accused of committing this fallacy. [[User:Cyraxote|Cyraxote]] ([[User talk:Cyraxote|talk]]) 15:35, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

== This article has a lot of problems ==

This article surely has a lot of problems. Quite a lot of people have posted examples which are not demonstrative of the fallacy. I've removed those which were incorrect or tenuously related, but there are still major problems with the article.

Firstly, it has to be acknowledged that its usage in language (particularly English and French) abounds, where it is used to express commonality ("Everybody knows that", "Tout(e)"). This usage is quite commonly used as inclusive language, to suggest a commonality between members of a group, which is why at political rallies and other events, the term is used to refer to those people there, or to those people allied to the cause, etc.

Secondly, the section on Democracy is hugely misguided and should link to a larger article on the problems outlined by many political theorists, such as the problem of Knowledge outlined by Plato. Those who have attempted to overcome it in subsequent political theory (such as Bentham and Rousseau) would probably be useful, too; an appeal to the masses in the case of a specialist problem better solved by those better-suited and experienced to the task is an example.

The democracy bit is outlined in a way that suggests democracy is a special case, because we, presumably in a democracy, accept the notion that democracy is a good thing. However, democracy has been, throughout a long stretch of history, criticized as being a compromise and been thought inferior to mixed or other forms of government.

Similarly, it seems all so very abstract when trying to define something. For instance, this section below:

* Most people of the country "A" may have wrong wills.
* These wrong wills may have very bad consequences.
* Therefore governing the country "A" based on the wills of most of its people is wrong.

What exactly is meant by "wrong wills"? What objective measure is predicated as occurring before the will of the people? Arbitrary individual will? The wrong will in reference to the will of a single person judging the will of others? Without delving into Plato's own conclusion, the article is just full of someone's assertions without any hint of verification. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/213.105.76.33|213.105.76.33]] ([[User talk:213.105.76.33|talk]]) 20:31, 9 May 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Fallacy? ==

I do not see how this is a fallacy. The majority obviously believes in things for reasons, not out of chance, so it may be more likely to be right than wrong. It's true that the majority '''can''' be wrong, and it's true that '''if''' too many people uses this logic, their beliefs will never change as they keep reconfirming each other, but these are simply problems and issues with the logic. For something to be a fallacy, the reasoning must be flawed. For example, saying "A door being slammed makes a loud bang, and loud bangs means a car crash might have happened. Therefore if I close the door quietly I am preventing car crashes" is a fallacy because the reason used doesn't actually make the conclusion more likely. However, saying "A door being slammed creates wind, and even the slightest wind will bother cars by a tiny bit, and they could crash. Therefore if I close the door quietly I am preventing car crashes" is not a fallacy despite practical problems and issues with the reasoning.

Even though the logic works for finding the truth (or I think it does), appealing to the people to decide one's beliefs can still be avoided to evade infinite loops of circular reference. But even if we should avoid it, it is still not a fallacy. (Since it'd be avoided for reasons other than being a fallacy [analogy: sound made for reasons other than a car crash])

This article should not speak of this as if explaining a fallacy, be talk of it as an effective type of reasoning with a cost of circular reference dangers. Appeals to the people work very well for finding answers, and that's why democracy works. But this article misleads people into thinking that majority's beliefs cannot determine truth, and if everyone read this perhaps democracy will look like a bad idea. Ideally, if everyone's beliefs are not influenced by others' beliefs, but all actions (not beliefs) of a democracy are determined by majority's beliefs, more correct actions will be made than if this """fallacy""" was never used and instead no actions were based on majority's beliefs.

This article seems misled. [[Special:Contributions/173.180.202.22|173.180.202.22]] ([[User talk:173.180.202.22|talk]]) 04:36, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

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Fallacy

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Is it really possible to say that Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy while most of the values we accept as a society are indeed "Argumentum ad populum"? --Comrade-yutyo (talk) 12:08, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. A majority of people believing something is good or true doesn't make it ethical or correct. Germanater09 (talk) 00:43, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
See here. --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:23, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

ad UNpopularity?

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Is there a name for the opposite? ie "No one agrees with X." StephanNaro (talk) 07:00, 7 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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