View source for Talk:Main Page/Archive 130

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{{Talk:Main Page/Archives}}

== Articles ==

What does it take to get an article up here on the main page? Does it have to be FA quality or a DYK article or can it be some article of B class quality aswell? Oh, and I also wonder: does anyone ever vandalise the main page? Because it protected...[[User:Jouke Bersma|J.B.]] ([[User talk:Jouke Bersma|talk]]) 10:04, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
:Yes, all articles on the main page are FA. The DYKs I don't know about. [[User:Darrenhusted|Darrenhusted]] ([[User talk:Darrenhusted|talk]]) 10:06, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
::Depends on what article you talk about. Today's Featured article has to be an FA. See [[Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests]] for more information. Also, DYK needs to be a new article that is not a stub, or a stub article expanded by over fivefold over the past five days. ITN articles must cover the topic in question, that is, the topic should be updated. Does this help? [[User:Zithan|Zithan]] ([[User talk:Zithan|talk]]) 09:58, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
:::DYK also requires to have a hook that can be adequately sourced. --[[User:293.xx.xxx.xx|293.xx.xxx.xx]] ([[User talk:293.xx.xxx.xx|talk]]) 03:57, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
That answers my first two questions, thanks for that. What about vandalism? Are there still admins vandalising the main page? Has it happened in the past (just curiousity)? [[User:Jouke Bersma|J.B.]] ([[User talk:Jouke Bersma|talk]]) 11:19, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=prev&oldid=124047566 It has happened]. (That user was de-adminned about ten minutes later.) ''[[User:Hut 8.5|<b style="color:#FF0000;">Hut 8.5</b>]]'' 11:25, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Pretty strange though... how one would do all his best to become admin and then does something like that. I fail to understand his motives... [[User:Jouke Bersma|J.B.]] ([[User talk:Jouke Bersma|talk]]) 11:32, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
:The common reasons are 1) an admin account is compromised, e.g. because it has an insecure password (although I think measures have been implemented to make dictionary attacks more difficult so this may be less common now) 2) an admin account is left logged on and someone with (usually) legitimate access to the computer uses it 3) an admin decides to quit wikipedia for whatever reason and decides to go out with a 'bang'. In cases 1 and 2, the admins will usually get their adminship back once they have proven their identity and explained what actually happened  [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 12:41, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
:What happened to that guy, then? Was it reason 1 or 2, or was he going out with a bang (3)? [[User:Bobamnertiopsis|<b style="color:#660000; font-family:Andalus;">Bob</b><span style="color:#00FFCC;">Amnertiopsis</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Bobamnertiopsis|∴]][[User talk:Bobamnertiopsis|<sub style="color:#FF9999; font-family:Tunga;">ChatMe!</sub>]] 17:29, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
::We don't know for sure but about a month before [[User talk:Robdurbar]] he said he was leaving. There was no contribs after until someone started fooling around [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Robdurbar]. This likely suggests it Robdurbar deciding to go out with a bang (whether it was him or he lent his account to someone else we don't know), although it's obviously still possible someone broke into his account. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 19:46, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
:::This user has gone on several other rampages with admin sockpuppets - see [[Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Robdurbar]]. ''[[User:Hut 8.5|<b style="color:#FF0000;">Hut 8.5</b>]]'' 07:34, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

== US election candidates on main page ==

US election coverage has been moved to [[/Archive 129]]. '''[[User:Firefoxman|ff]][[User talk:Firefoxman|<span style="color:darkgreen;">m</span>]]''' 00:11, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
:Interesting - the way the time zones worked out, election day ended for Wikipedia before any more than one or two states had been called in the U.S. --''[[User:Philosopher|Philosopher]]''&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Philosopher|Let us reason together.]]</sup> 00:53, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
::Not really, since votes are ''cast'' during one day, but the results aren't announced until early on the the next one [[User:Modest Genius|<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b>]] [[User_talk:Modest Genius|<sup>talk</sup>]] 03:44, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
:::Yes, but the polls were still open in virtually every U.S. state, meaning the ''voting'' hadn't been completed.  In fact, voting is still going on in Alaska right now. --''[[User:Philosopher|Philosopher]]''&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Philosopher|Let us reason together.]]</sup> 04:40, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
::::Wikipedia doesn't care about election day [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 18:32, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

== Obama's name is spelled wrong ==

<s>His name should be spelled as "Barack Obama", not "Barrack Obama". Thanks, ♪[[User:Tempodivalse|<span style="color:Red">Tempo</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Tempodivalse|<span style="color:Green">Di</span>]][[User Talk:Tempodivalse|<span style="color:Blue">Valse</span>]]♪ 04:05, 5 November 2008 (UTC)</s>

Never mind, someone fixed it. Thanks. ♪[[User:Tempodivalse|<span style="color:Red">Tempo</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Tempodivalse|<span style="color:Green">Di</span>]][[User Talk:Tempodivalse|<span style="color:Blue">Valse</span>]]♪ 04:45, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

== How is the ==

Main page edited? It has changes but, no visible change in the history.--[[User:Jakezing|Jakezing]] ([[User talk:Jakezing|talk]]) 04:17, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
:Through templates like [[Template:In the news]]. - [[User:Mark|Mark]] 04:18, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
::And its automaticly edited into the page without any notice?--[[User:Jakezing|Jakezing]] ([[User talk:Jakezing|talk]]) 04:19, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
:::Yes. See [[WP:TRANSCLUDE]]. &ndash;'''[[User:Howard the Duck|<span style="color:#FFA500;">Howard</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Howard the Duck|<span style="color:#FFA500;">the</span>]] [[User talk:Howard the Duck|<span style="color:#FFA500;">Duck</span>]]''' 04:22, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
::::That goes over my head but ok.--[[User:Jakezing|Jakezing]] ([[User talk:Jakezing|talk]]) 04:28, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
:::::Is there a particular section of it you want to watch?  We can point you to it if you like.  --''[[User:Philosopher|Philosopher]]''&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Philosopher|Let us reason together.]]</sup> 05:23, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

== In the News ==

Ah, any chance in switching the order of In the News from leading off with "an airplane crashes" to instead leading off with the Barack Obama story. His photo is the only one on the In the News Main Page section and it seems a bigger story. Thanks. -- [[User:Suntag|Suntag]] [[User talk:Suntag|<b><big><font color="#FF8C00">☼</font></big></b>]] 04:30, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
:Does itm atter? No.--[[User:Jakezing|Jakezing]] ([[User talk:Jakezing|talk]]) 04:35, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
:While I don't object to reversing the order given that both stories were about the same time, your premise is flawed. We always only have one ITN picture and we don't sort by priority but chronologically. In any case, this really belongs in errors above or [[WP:ITN/C]] [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 04:35, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
:I dunno what time the plane crashed  but Obama was elected a few (if you're at the West Coast) hours ago... &ndash;'''[[User:Howard the Duck|<span style="color:#FFA500;">Howard</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Howard the Duck|<span style="color:#FFA500;">the</span>]] [[User talk:Howard the Duck|<span style="color:#FFA500;">Duck</span>]]''' 04:39, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
== Donate ad ==

Does the donate ad need to be so big? It hasn't been in the past, and, honestly, it looks unprofessional being so big and in-your-face. Sure, you can make it smaller, but for the casual user, this massive ad, bigger even than banner ads on other web sites, is the first thing he's going to see. [[User:Zafiroblue05|zafiroblue05]] | [[User talk:Zafiroblue05|Talk]] 02:09, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
:Wikimedia needs money!! --[[User:Domthedude001|<span style="color:#0000FF;font-weight:bold;">'''Dom<span style="color:red">the</span><span style="color:#FFBF00">dude</span>001'''</span>]] 03:25, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
::... and is unlikely to get any by being pushy. - [[User:Tbsdy lives|Tbsdy lives]] (formerly [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]]) <sup>[[User talk:Tbsdy lives|talk]]</sup> 10:35, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
::It was sooooo tempting to put a <nowiki>{{</nowiki>sodonate}} template here... But honestly, it's either this or actual ads. '''[[User:Firefoxman|ff]][[User talk:Firefoxman|<span style="color:darkgreen;">m</span>]]''' 03:37, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
:::A badly done ad that generates ill will is not worth the short-term gains. To me, this looks like a knee-jerk reaction to the results of the survey. [[User:Feezo|Feezo]] <FONT SIZE="-2">[[User_talk:Feezo|(Talk)]]</FONT> 06:10, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
::::How so? We have a fund-raising drive at around the same time every year, and every year it's the end of the world, but here we are, 1 year after the last one, 2 years after the one two years ago, three years after the one before that (not sure about this one), and the world is still spinning, wikipedia is still here, etc [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 15:59, 6 November 2008 (UTC)


Ugly, ugly, ugly! It's even huger and uglier than most web page banner ads. --[[User:Fubar Obfusco|FOo]] ([[User talk:Fubar Obfusco|talk]]) 05:27, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
:Agreed, it looks terrible. The red box is too big compared to the Donate Now text and is too bright of a shade of red. I think red text on a white background would suffice It screams 'banner ad'. On the plus side it might just annoy enough people to donate enough that it goes away faster :) [[User:Mfield|Mfield]] ([[User talk:Mfield|talk]]) 05:33, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
::It wouldn't be ''quite'' so bad if the "hide" button actually ''hid'' it, instead of just making it smaller. To actually hide it &mdash; for example if you've already donated &mdash; you can disable Javascript. I highly recommend [[NoScript]] for this purpose. [[User:Feezo|Feezo]] <FONT SIZE="-2">[[User_talk:Feezo|(Talk)]]</FONT>
'''Note''': Logged in users can hide the banner by going to [[Special:Preferences]] → Gadgets. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 05:35, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
:There is no easy way of knowing this. - [[User:Tbsdy lives|Tbsdy lives]] (formerly [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]]) <sup>[[User talk:Tbsdy lives|talk]]</sup> 10:35, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
:Where is this banner located?  I did a search and couldn't find it - also the image it uses doesn't appear to be in Image: space. --''[[User:Philosopher|Philosopher]]''&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Philosopher|Let us reason together.]]</sup> 05:36, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
::Loaded from Meta. See [[WP:NOTICES]] for a bit more information. :-)  --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 05:53, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
:::Thanks.  --''[[User:Philosopher|Philosopher]]''&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Philosopher|Let us reason together.]]</sup> 05:55, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

:Good to know, thanks. [[User:Mfield|Mfield]] ([[User talk:Mfield|talk]]) 05:37, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

:Hideous and intrusive. Almost makes me want to go on Wiki-strike. [[User:Gandalf61|Gandalf61]] ([[User talk:Gandalf61|talk]]) 06:45, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm logging in for the first time in a while to comment on how intrusive this banner is. Maybe that was the point. But I agree with pretty much all the comments above. TOO BIIIG!. [[User:QmunkE|QmunkE]] ([[User talk:QmunkE|talk]]) 07:53, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Why does the ad say "now it [Wikipedia] needs you"? Along with the ad's prominence, it makes it look like there's a sudden financial crisis. If so, it should have a link to a "more info" page with an explanation for the urgency. If not, it's crying wolf and should be reduced/deleted. [[Special:Contributions/24.62.224.57|24.62.224.57]] ([[User talk:24.62.224.57|talk]]) 12:45, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
:I agree. It's just too... red. Why can't we have the small, unintrusive signs we had in previous years? --[[User:Zvika|Zvika]] ([[User talk:Zvika|talk]]) 12:48, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
::Then again that puzzle-piece looks entirely cheesy.  That, and a bright red button is not to be fooled around with.  "Hide" should hide the colored button - unless you're willing to change Monobook to make it bright orange and flash at [[Seizure|12 cycles a second]]. ~[[user:orngjce223]] [[user_talk:orngjce223|how am I typing?]] 21:11, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

== Snowflake ---> Rubik's cube ==

Just curious. How comes the picture for today's article has changed, as shown in the title? [[User:Simply south|Simply south]] ([[User talk:Simply south|talk]]) 11:22, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
:Probably because the new image suited the article more. -[[User:Domthedude001|<span style="color:#0000FF;font-weight:bold;">'''Dom<span style="color:red">the</span><span style="color:#FFBF00">dude</span>001'''</span>]] 16:59, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

== List of donors ==

Where can I find a list of all donations? There used to be some information at http://donate.wikimedia.org/en/node/22 [[Special:Contributions/131.111.216.71|131.111.216.71]] ([[User talk:131.111.216.71|talk]]) 15:37, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Special:ContributionHistory/en. Note that, although not mentioned anywhere on the donation form, there is a minimum size that donations must be in order to appear here (something like $1) -- [[User:Gurch|Gurch]] ([[User talk:Gurch|talk]]) 16:22, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

::That's not what I want. The list is incomplete, and I would like totals. [[Special:Contributions/131.111.216.71|131.111.216.71]] ([[User talk:131.111.216.71|talk]]) 17:16, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

::: There is http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Special:ContributionTotal, but I think it's lying -- [[User:Gurch|Gurch]] ([[User talk:Gurch|talk]]) 18:22, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

::::What currency is the above link in? '''[[User:Spencer|<span style="color:#082567">Spencer</span>]]'''<sup>[[User talk:Spencer|<span style="color:#FFBF00">T♦</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/Spencer|<span style="color:#FFBF00">C</span>]]</sup> 21:55, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

:::::US$ I guess. When has the foundation ever listed their donations in anything else? They are an American foundation after all [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 03:07, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

::See also http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Special:ContributionStatistics  More tools are supposed to be coming but not yet available.  [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] ([[User talk:Dragons flight|talk]]) 18:24, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

== linguistic imperialism ==

My annoyance with the "Foundation" and their annoying donate flag... it cuts into minor wikipedia projects in ENGLISH. Very culturally imperialistic. (The major languages have localized versions luckly though.) Someone please tell them to take away their imperialistic tendencies and wake up and realize the true nature of Wikipedia ? Cheers, [[User:Nesnad|Nesnad]] ([[User talk:Nesnad|talk]]) 18:29, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
: The true nature of Wikipedia is that '''there is a constant need of volunteer translators''' for things like this.  Wanna help?
: "Annoyance"? Which wikipedia projects are you calling "minor"?  Your belittling late-starting projects is more annoying than the donate flag.  
: BTW, if you have a problem with the Foundation, complain at the Foundation's website.  Please do not post here on [[Talk:Main Page]] messages that have nothing to do with [[Main Page]] of [[English Wikipedia]]. That's annoying, too. --[[Special:Contributions/199.71.174.100|199.71.174.100]] ([[User talk:199.71.174.100|talk]]) 21:23, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
:: This is the [[English language]] Wikipedia. [[User:Garden|<font color=#33cccc>'''Garden'''</font>]]. 21:26, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

== Automatic placement in search bar ==

Why does the main page not place the cursor automatically in the search bar? The [http://www.wikipedia.org central page] does this as soon as you open the page: is there any reason why the main page shouldn't do this too? [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]] ([[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|talk]]) 23:34, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
:See the FAQ response. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Main_Page_FAQ#Why_doesn.27t_the_cursor_appear_in_the_search_box.2C_like_with_Google.3F] --[[User:Siradia|Siradia]] ([[User talk:Siradia|talk]]) 23:45, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
== Donations drive ==

Can't see anyone else noting this, but the donations drive notice is extremely large and, no, it's not hidable. Wikimedia just guaranteed that I'm ''not'' going to donate to them now, and I'm a long time contributor. - [[User:Tbsdy lives|Tbsdy lives]] (formerly [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]]) <sup>[[User talk:Tbsdy lives|talk]]</sup> 08:34, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
:Just  found that it is hidable. But why so hidden in preferences? - [[User:Tbsdy lives|Tbsdy lives]] (formerly [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]]) <sup>[[User talk:Tbsdy lives|talk]]</sup> 09:29, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
::There's a discussion [[Talk:Main Page#Donate ad|above]] &mdash; I fully agree with you by the way. [[User:Feezo|Feezo]] <FONT SIZE="-2">[[User_talk:Feezo|(Talk)]]</FONT> 09:30, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
:::Ah-hah! I shall donate to wikipedia if I so wish, its my money. I do not need a huge unavoidable (until I read this) banner to tell me to "DONATE NOW!" [[user:kennedy|<span style="color:#800000; font-family:lucida handwriting;">Kennedy</span>]] <sup>([[user_talk:kennedy|<span style="color:#800000;">talk</span>]]) </sup> 09:34, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
::::Agree, I have been using Wikipedia for years and (on my screen) this stands out as an odd blemish on an otherwise excellent open culture site.  Please can we get it reduced in size? - David Higham

Agreed too. It looks hideous and almost trying to force people to contribute. I'm not impressed by the way it has been done this time. There is a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(all)#Donate_Now_.C2.BB_.21.21.21.21.21.21.21.21.21.21.21.21 village pump discussion] about it and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#.22Support_Wikipedia:_a_non-profit_project.22_omnipresent_banner here][[User talk:Dr. Blofeld| <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;"> <span style="color:#fef;background:black;">'''''Count Blofeld'''''</span></span>]] 12:36, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
:You can turn it off in special/preferences/gadgets.  That's only for registered users though, so tough luck anoyonmous IP scum! '''[[User:Lugnuts|<span style="color:#002bb8;">Lugnuts</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Lugnuts|talk]]) 12:48, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

::Excuse me Lugnuts? -.- [[Special:Contributions/82.32.252.203|82.32.252.203]] ([[User talk:82.32.252.203|talk]]) 19:58, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
:::You've read it - you can't unread it! '''[[User:Lugnuts|<span style="color:#002bb8;">Lugnuts</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Lugnuts|talk]]) 08:21, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
::They're not all trouble makers. Maybe 99.9% of them are, but not all of them. : )  [[User:Pacific Coast Highway|Pacific Coast Highway]] <sup><font color="#cc3300"><b>{</b>[[User talk:Pacific Coast Highway|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pacific Coast Highway|contribs]]<b>}</b></font></sup> 23:22, 5 November 2008 (UTC)</font>
:::Presumably Lugnuts is referring to the fact that, at the whim of the foundation, IP users are not only being subjected to one of the ugliest things I have ever seen, but are unable to remove it. I guess the foundation hates anonymous users. [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 11:20, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
== Criteria for bold words on "In the news" section ==

What is the criteria for bolded words? Right now there are 8 names total in the various headlines combined, but only 4 of them are bolded. Also, certain events are bolded and some aren't ("2008 presidential elections" is in bold but "2008 Formula One Drivers' Championship" is not). Just wondering if it's random or what. [[User:NIRVANA2764|NIRVANA2764]] ([[User talk:NIRVANA2764|talk]]) 19:50, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
:Primary article which carries the news is bold. Other links point to articles which might help understand the news item better. --[[User:gppande|<font color="red" face="cursive">'''GP'''</font><font color="black" face="cursive">'''Pande'''</font>]] [[User talk:gppande|<span style="color:blue;">'''talk!'''</span>]] 20:02, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
::Exactly. Usually it is whichever article has the most substantial update, though sometimes admins prefer to bold a more well-developed article at the expense of a slightly larger update. In the Palau entry I'm pretty sure only the elections article should be bolded, since we normally bold only one link in each hook. [[User:Random89|<span style="color:#3B9C9C;">Random</span>]][[User Talk:Random89|<span style="color:#F87217;">89</span>]] 20:55, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
:::Fixed the Palau elections one. '''[[User:Spencer|<span style="color:#082567">Spencer</span>]]'''<sup>[[User talk:Spencer|<span style="color:#FFBF00">T♦</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/Spencer|<span style="color:#FFBF00">C</span>]]</sup> 16:52, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

== Discussion at [[WT:DYK]] that may be more relevant here ==

I just posted [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3ADid_you_know&diff=250296514&oldid=250291761 this] and an edit conflict was automatically resolved. However, since I share the view of the preceding editor that we need to be open minded about possible solutions, it may be more appropriate to move the discussion here. ''[[User talk:Geometry guy|Geometry guy]]'' 20:00, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' That DYK discussion was about expanding the Main Page content to include GA articles as part of DYK. -- [[User:Suntag|Suntag]] [[User talk:Suntag|<b><big><font color="#FF8C00">☼</font></big></b>]] 20:32, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
::Commented there, I'd like to encourage all interested in the content of the Main Page to do so as well. [[User:Modest Genius|<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b>]] [[User_talk:Modest Genius|<sup>talk</sup>]] 23:15, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
:::There is also related discussion at [[Wikipedia talk:2008 main page redesign proposal#Featured content]]. Thanks to OhanaUnited for pointing this out at [[WT:GA]]. ''[[User talk:Geometry guy|Geometry guy]]'' 16:48, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

== US bias ==

Why wasn't the NZ election featured? I remember: "We're not bias, what makes you think we won't do this for other elections?" Ya, well why don't you make good on your word? [[User:Sir Stig|Sir Stig]] ([[User talk:Sir Stig|talk]]) 17:27, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
:It is now. It usually takes some time to post the news to ITN as only admins can do so. We have few admins who are dedicated to this work. You are encouraged to nominated news at [[WP:ITN/C]]. --[[User:gppande|<font color="red" face="cursive">'''GP'''</font><font color="black" face="cursive">'''Pande'''</font>]] [[User talk:gppande|<span style="color:blue;">'''talk!'''</span>]] 17:39, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
::Ya, sorry, that came off as angry. I don't even live in NZ, but I'm trying to provide an objective POV. My point is that there wasn't any ''featured article'' for the NZ elections like the US ones. [[User:Sir Stig|Sir Stig]] ([[User talk:Sir Stig|talk]]) 18:24, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
:::I am sorry - I thought you were pointing to ITN section. Well, is there any article of FA class which is related to this election? If there is one, I know there is some point-based mechanism stating when the FA will be on main page. People with more knowledge can pitch in here. --[[User:gppande|<font color="red" face="cursive">'''GP'''</font><font color="black" face="cursive">'''Pande'''</font>]] [[User talk:gppande|<span style="color:blue;">'''talk!'''</span>]] 19:43, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
:::In any case, people write about what they are interested in. FAs are also selected for quality, not relevance. If there was an appropreate FA, I'm sure there would not be a problem getting it on the MP. '''[[User:Firefoxman|ff]][[User talk:Firefoxman|<span style="color:darkgreen;">m</span>]]''' 20:09, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
The correct word is "'''biased'''" not "'''bias'''". Argh! [[Special:Contributions/66.231.141.34|66.231.141.34]] ([[User talk:66.231.141.34|talk]]) 18:35, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

[[John Key]] and [[Helen Clark]] are not [[WP:FA|featured articles]], while [[John McCain]] and [[Barack Obama]] are both featured articles.  If the New Zealand candidate articles were brought to featured status, then they would be eligible to be featured on the main page. --[[User:Aude|Aude]] <small>([[User talk:Aude|talk]])</small> 18:44, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
:Although, given the way that the [[Westminster system]] works, the more appropriate articles would be [[New Zealand National Party]] and [[New Zealand Labour Party]]. The position of Prime Minister isn't up for vote, only the seats in the [[New Zealand House of Representatives]]. If [[John Key]] were to resign (or die), his Party would put forward a new Prime Minister without public ballot, and it wouldn't necessarily be the [[Deputy Prime Minister]] (e.g. [[Gordon Brown]] assuming Premiership rather than [[John Prescott]] in the UK) [[User:GeeJo|GeeJo]] <sup>[[User talk:GeeJo|(t)]]</sup>⁄<sub>[[Special:Contributions/GeeJo|(c)]]</sub> <small>&bull;&nbsp;21:02, 8 November 2008 (UTC)</small>
== Donate Now sign ==

I actually find the sign a little distracting, I'm sorry to say, but it's true. I don't find it hideable, contrary to what is said above. A great deal of it remains after one clicks the "hide" option, and tyhe red button catches your eye much more than the article you're trying to read --[[User:Maurice45|Maurice45]] ([[User talk:Maurice45|talk]]) 14:23, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

:I concur.  The donation sign is freakin' massive.  We just suffered through a U.S. election, and we've experienced enough signs asking for support to last a lifetime.  I'd rather be gagged with a popsicle stick than stare at a "give me money" banner in the only place that provides temporary sanctuary while I'm working. <b>[[User:DigitalNinja|<span style="font-family:Arial; color:#1F860E;">Digital</span>]][[User:DigitalNinja|<sup style="color:#20038A;">Ninja</sup>]]</b> 14:49, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

::check your user prefs.[[User:Geni|Geni]] 15:12, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

:::In particular, in "gadgets", which isn't obvious. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 15:24, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

:::: Thanks guys --[[User:Maurice45|Maurice45]] ([[User talk:Maurice45|talk]]) 16:08, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

:::: I've added a section near the top of this page about how to remove the notice, as it seems inevitable that there will otherwise be multiple posts about it here -- [[User:Gurch|Gurch]] ([[User talk:Gurch|talk]]) 16:10, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

:::::Unfortunately, it's far enough down that I doubt anyone will see it. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 19:07, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
::::::Well from my experience, the first few days of the banner there will always be people who don't notice the thousnds of other discussions so it's probably pretty pointless. Heck I suspect if we put another banner under the fundraising banner describing how to get rid of the fundraising banner (and itself of course) we would still have people coming here [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 08:23, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
:::::That section claims that it is beyond the control of en.wikipedia to remove the notice entirely. This is not true. Any admin could do it by editing [[Mediawiki:Common.css]]. [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 14:18, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
::::::I'm pretty sure that would be grounds for immediate desysopping maybe even with a ban thrown in. If you don't agree with the foundation, you discuss the matter with them, not overide them. They run the site, they make the decision. It's either directly stated, or strongly implied, that when the foundation put up a fundraising notice without saying you can take it off if you want, you don't bloody well take it off unless you get their permission. So yeah, it is beyond our control. I mean technically yeah, if the FBI don't like Obama they could murder him. But that would clearly be illegal and unacceptable so Obama becoming president is beyond their control [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 16:05, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Of course there are always conspiracies and just like the FBI may blame it on terrorists the admins may get Jimbo drunk or something and make him remove it. >.> -- [[User:Mentisock|<span style="color:#800080; font-family:courier new;">Menti</span>]][[User talk:Mentisock|<span style="color:#000000; font-family:courier new;">sock</span>]] 17:48, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
::::::::I was the one who added the note about it being beyond our control. I think it is, as Nil said, beyond our control (whether by technical restrictions or not). I would like to re-add that sentence to the note, but will not edit-war over it. Consensus? [[User:Random89|<span style="color:#3B9C9C;">Random</span>]][[User Talk:Random89|<span style="color:#F87217;">89</span>]] 21:12, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
::::::::Well, wikimedia just ensured I won't be making any donations any time soon. GJ, well played. [[User:Modest Genius|<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b>]] [[User_talk:Modest Genius|<sup>talk</sup>]] 18:57, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

HI, can someone please tell me how to get rid of the big thermometer with the donations at the top of my welcome page?  It is an eye sore.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/76.112.242.246|76.112.242.246]] ([[User talk:76.112.242.246|talk]]) 22:31, 8 November 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: Hit the "Collapse" button in the upper right of the advertisement. [[User:APL|APL]] ([[User talk:APL|talk]]) 04:28, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

::First you register, then you sign in, then go to your preferences > gadgets > click the box to disable the banner. [[User:Stepshep|<span style="color:green; font-family:Comic Sans MS;">§hep</span>]]  •  [[User talk:Stepshep|<span style="color:green; font-family:Comic Sans MS;">¡Talk to me!</span>]] 04:36, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

: Very weird.  The banner seems to change every time I load a page.  Sometimes there is a period after the word "project", sometimes not.  Sometimes there is a big red button, sometimes not. (If not, sometimes there are two dashes before the link, sometimes not.) Very disconcerting to have it look different every time.[[User:APL|APL]] ([[User talk:APL|talk]]) 07:46, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
== Picture for ''In the News'' ==

Is it possible to move the small picture for ''In the News'' to beside the relevant news snippet? When it's at the top, I would instinctively assume it to be related to the first news snippet. This can be perplexing when you get a picture of John Kelley smiling next to news of deaths on a Russian submarine.
[[Special:Contributions/195.243.90.252|195.243.90.252]] ([[User talk:195.243.90.252|talk]]) 09:53, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

: Pls see [[Wikipedia:FAQ/Main Page#Why are the images on "In the news" and "On this day" not aligned next to each relevant entry?]].  Also, if you use a bigger monitor or a smaller font, the smiling Mr. Key would still be next to the corresponding headline about his election victory. --[[Special:Contributions/199.71.174.100|199.71.174.100]] ([[User talk:199.71.174.100|talk]]) 19:57, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
== hyper-consumption ==

This is a request for someone more knowledgeable them myself to post in depth information on hyper-consumption.
I'm astonished that this is not on Wikipedia. It's a large part of the American culture.  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Keianc|Keianc]] ([[User talk:Keianc|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Keianc|contribs]]) 21:16, 12 November 2008 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Here is not the place for such a request; perhaps you could try [[Wikipedia:Requested articles]] or [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Economics]]? I assume it's an economic term, if not, then another appropriate Wikiproject may be able to help. [[User:J Milburn|J Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 21:20, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

:Do the articles on [[consumerism]], [[consumer capitalism]] and [[conspicuous consumption]] help?-[[User talk:gadfium|<span style="font-family:cursive; color:#808080;">gadfium</span>]] 01:17, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
== ads ==

what is the point of wikipedia beoing 'a non-profit project' if it ends up containing ads bigger and moer intrusive then for-profit websites like google or yahoo?  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/81.139.76.64|81.139.76.64]] ([[User talk:81.139.76.64|talk]]) 08:20, 12 November 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:See above discussions. [[User:Darrenhusted|Darrenhusted]] ([[User talk:Darrenhusted|talk]]) 12:07, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
::I don't find the ad that intrusive to be honest and I have seen a lot worse, namely those that expand and cover the page when you scroll over them. They should be banned.[[User:Dark verdant|Dark verdant]] ([[User talk:Dark verdant|talk]]) 09:45, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

: You ask [[PBS]]!  Pretty soon they'll replace our regularly scheduled articles with Peter Paul and Mary, and Victor Borge until we pay them to stop. :-)
: Seriously, though, it's easy enough to hide the notice. [[User:APL|APL]] ([[User talk:APL|talk]]) 14:18, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

== Question ==

When I would want to get an article on the main page, how do I do that? I mean, an article that is not new (DYK) or FA-class, namely [[Pier Gerlofs Donia]]? How could I get that article on the main page? [[User:Jouke Bersma|J.B.]] ([[User talk:Jouke Bersma|talk]]) 14:40, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

:If it is not FA-class, then it can't be [[Wikipedia:Today's featured article|Today's featured article]], and if it is not new or recently expanded then it can't be on DYK. That leaves In The News (current events) or On This Day (historical events). Was Pier Gerlofs Donia a key player in a significant historical event (see [[Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries]] for an idea of what is considered significant)? If yes then that would be your best bet, otherwise I'd say work on getting it to FA-class. — [[User talk:Jwillbur|jwillbur]] 15:52, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

:: DYK accepts five-fold expansions of existing articles. --[[Special:Contributions/76.64.77.189|76.64.77.189]] ([[User talk:76.64.77.189|talk]]) 16:58, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

== Featured image ==

[[Image:Mast zelikvor.jpg|right|thumb|Sails on a small ship as seen from below]]
Can I get the following image featured on the main page?
[[User:Jouke Bersma|J.B.]] ([[User talk:Jouke Bersma|talk]]) 14:56, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

:To be on [[Wikipedia:Picture of the day]], it must first pass the [[Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates|Featured picture process]]. To pass it must meet the [[Wikipedia:Featured picture criteria|featured picture criteria]], and the process is pretty rigorous. — [[User talk:Jwillbur|jwillbur]] 15:32, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

::I should also point out that images are currently shown on the main page largely in order of them becoming a FP and IIRC, the timeframe between an image becoming FP and being TFP is 6 months or more [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 15:36, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
::This image will not pass FPC I'm afraid - it'll be shot down on lack of encyclopaedic value, lack of sharpness, lack of wow factor and noise. —[[User:Vanderdecken|Vanderdecken]]∴ '''[[User talk:Vanderdecken|∫]][[Special:Emailuser/Vanderdecken|ξ]][[Special:Contributions/Vanderdecken|φ]]''' 09:40, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Oh boy. Another American war machine as the featured image. [[User:El Genie|El Genie]] ([[User talk:El Genie|talk]]) 02:30, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
:Well, when the US government puts out lots of free pictures, there's bound to be a a good number of them that are of high quality and historic importance. <span style="font-family:Verdana; ">'''[[User:Howcheng|<span style="color:#33C;">howcheng</span>]]'''  <small>{[[User talk:Howcheng|chat]]}</small></span> 05:36, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

== today's featured picture ==

who's responsible for today's picture?
there was a moment today in which the picture of the day was not this one but another, showing a man with a bottle sticking out of his ass. how can this happen in a protected page??
i suggest the bad taste joker be banned from wikipedia.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/192.104.37.15|192.104.37.15]] ([[User talk:192.104.37.15|talk]]) 09:49, 13 November 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Yeah, I'd be curious how this happened as well, and it's been a real pain to get all the thumbnails purged from caches (despite going around trying action=purge on every possibly relevant page... think most/all are gone now about 20 mins later?). Aren't images on the main page automatically cascade-protected? --[[User:Delirium|Delirium]] ([[User talk:Delirium|talk]]) 10:07, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

:Got hit on commons where it appears it wasn't protected.[[User:Geni|Geni]] 15:08, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
::Should've uploaded to en for local protection. --[[Special:Contributions/76.64.77.189|76.64.77.189]] ([[User talk:76.64.77.189|talk]]) 15:18, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

:::[[User:MPUploadBot]] is supposed to take care of it. I will have to bug [[User:X!]] about it. <span style="font-family:Verdana; ">'''[[User:Howcheng|<span style="color:#33C;">howcheng</span>]]'''  <small>{[[User talk:Howcheng|chat]]}</small></span> 16:59, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

== New topic ==

How do you write about a new topic, cause i want to write a biography about people? <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:24.218.148.180|24.218.148.180]] ([[User talk:24.218.148.180|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/24.218.148.180|contribs]]) 16:57, 13 November 2008 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
:See [[Wikipedia:Your first article]]. <span style="font-family:Verdana; ">'''[[User:Howcheng|<span style="color:#33C;">howcheng</span>]]'''  <small>{[[User talk:Howcheng|chat]]}</small></span> 16:59, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
== featured article ==

why is some british guy there on veterans day? shouldn't it be something veterans day related? gah [[Special:Contributions/98.15.216.208|98.15.216.208]] ([[User talk:98.15.216.208|talk]]) 15:26, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
:Raul654 gets accused of being biased in favor of the United States more often than Adolf Hitler gets accused of being an anti-semite.  I guess he wanted a day off from that... or perhaps there were no FA-quality articles that fit the holiday. *shrugs* Happy Veterans Day, everyone, and thanks to Raul654 for always doing a dang good job. [[Special:Contributions/168.9.120.8|168.9.120.8]] ([[User talk:168.9.120.8|talk]]) 15:58, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

:It is.  Happy [[Remembrance Day]].  Maybe you think only Americans fight wars?  [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] ([[User talk:Dragons flight|talk]]) 16:04, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
::most of wikipedia's readers are from america anyway. [[Special:Contributions/98.15.216.208|98.15.216.208]] ([[User talk:98.15.216.208|talk]]) 16:08, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
:::What the hell are you basing that on? [[User:J Milburn|J Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 17:15, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
::::I do not know about readership, (indeed, I do not think it is possible to know), but according to [[:Image:English Wikipedia contributors by country (1).svg|this chart]], nearly 48% of the English Wikipedia's contributors come from locations other than the US. I would assume that this largely reflects the readership percentages. [[User:J.delanoy|<span style="color:green;">J'''.'''delanoy</span>]][[User Talk:J.delanoy|<sup style="color:red;">gabs</sup>]][[Special:Contributions/J.delanoy|<sub style="color:blue;">adds</sub>]] 17:28, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
:::::I suspect there would be a higher proportion of readers who do not speak English as a first language than there are contributors who do not speak English as a first language, but I admit I am shocked more than half of our contributors are American. [[User:J Milburn|J Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 17:49, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
::::::The USA accounts for ~65% of all people who speak English as their first language.  [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] ([[User talk:Dragons flight|talk]]) 19:42, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
:::::::The last time I looked at the Alexa rankings, the largest group of visitors came from the US, around 25%. The second largest group was either Germany or Japan, and came in around 10%. I believe the UK comes in around 5th or 6th with only a few percentage points. - [[User:AuburnPilot|<span style="color:#000080;">auburn</span><span style="color:#CC5500;">pilot</span>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 19:51, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
:::::::: 25% hardly qualifies as "most of wikipedia's readers are from america". --[[Special:Contributions/199.71.174.100|199.71.174.100]] ([[User talk:199.71.174.100|talk]]) 20:06, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::To be fair, those stats are for all Wikipedias, not just the English one. [[User:J Milburn|J Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 20:09, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::Alexa rankings are a highly flawed statistic anyway especially when your talking about something across such a diverse geographical range, www.wikipedia.org recently stopped using them to decide which wikipedia languages should be on top (which it was decided should be based on the most popular) and turned to own statistics and IIRC, this changed the result a fair bit. See [[:Meta:Talk:Www.wikipedia.org template]] for details. We don't however have visitor geographical location statistics per wikipedia AFAIK and indeed I'm not even sure if the foundation would allow something like that [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 15:46, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Veterans day is ONLY in US...pretty much entire commonwealth has remembrance day hence a british soldier (seeing at it marks the end of world war 1). I have seen a lot of US related articles that get posted on their related day and yes ppl do complain about US-Bias but it always resorts to fact that wiki will also feature other country's article if one is available. I was actually happy for the fact that finally something other that US gets posted and then i see this conversation. Seriously you guys really make wikipedia look like USpedia sometimes.  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Ashishg55|Ashishg55]] ([[User talk:Ashishg55|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ashishg55|contribs]]) 23:50, 11 November 2008 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Why does everybody constantly complain about the United States? It's very irritating. I remember people complaining about having 9/11 on as the featured article [[Special:Contributions/76.77.225.169|76.77.225.169]] ([[User talk:76.77.225.169|talk]]) 03:18, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
:Everybody doesn't. I count one in this thread. [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 03:26, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
:Because there was no heavy Rwanda emphasis on April 6? etc. Everybody constantly complains because there IS something wrong.[[User:EamonnPKeane|EamonnPKeane]] ([[User talk:EamonnPKeane|talk]]) 01:13, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

== Typo ==

There is a typo on this page. "52-storey" should be "52-story". I would help, but I am only a regular user (and a real noob too) so I can't do anything to help. [[User:Jonathan321|Jonathan321]] ([[User talk:Jonathan321|talk]]) 16:23, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

:Storey is correct British English.  We allow either British or American spellings.  [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] ([[User talk:Dragons flight|talk]]) 16:29, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

::Actually, it should use [[Australian English]] since the article concerned is [[BankWest Tower]] which is in Australia. The article itself uses 'story' but the correct Australian English spelling is 'storey' as per [http://www.macquarienet.com.au/anonymous@FF877419659/-/p/macnet/search.html?&collection=all_base&submit=Search&terms=storey&ac=dict MacquarieNet].
:::In any case, sticking to the two major varieties of English will cause no issue, regardless of the specifics of the article or [[WP:Spelling]]. Anyway, the variations amongst C'wealth countries (maybe except Canada) are all just versions of "English" English after accounting for region-specific words. [[Special:Contributions/118.90.54.71|118.90.54.71]] ([[User talk:118.90.54.71|talk]]) 12:41, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
::::However those difference should be reflected in articles with strong national ties to a topic per [[WP:ENGVAR]]. And per engvar, we don't stick to the two 'major' varieties of English. American English is just a version of English too, it isn't a different language, even if there are more differences to many other versions of English [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 06:17, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
== Incomings ==

Given the situation of the donations not reaching the goal of 6 million dollars in the usual period of time, do you think it's fair to have adds in the main page and the bottom of article pages? Comments are welcome.
<sub>└</sub><sup>'''[[User:Nitro4ce|<span style="color:black;">Nitro4ce</span>]]'''</sup><sub>┘</sub><sup>┌</sup><sub>''[[User Talk:Nitro4ce|<span style="color:red;">t</span>]]''</sub><sup>┐</sup>&ensp; 18:06, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

: IMO, this is a good start and will greatly improve the situation. I hope they do so. But in the other hand I think that the key is to also integrate the encyclopedia with other services so it can recover the popularity it used to have some years ago. [[User:Canolucas|Canolucas]] ([[User talk:Canolucas|talk]]) 18:13, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

::Given the controvesy over the size of the ads, this will be controversal. [[User:Yowuza|<span style="font-family:Matisse ITC;">YOWUZA</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Yowuza|Talk 2 me!]]</small> 18:15, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

:::I calculate that at the current donation rate of 60 cents a second (averaged over 7 days) it will take a little under 9 weeks to reach 6million... [[Special:Contributions/87.194.177.211|87.194.177.211]] ([[User talk:87.194.177.211|talk]]) 08:36, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Where do you need that money for? What are you going to do with the money you'll receive? Does wikipedia have people in payed service then, and if so, how much and how to become one?  [[User:Jouke Bersma|J.B.]] ([[User talk:Jouke Bersma|talk]]) 11:12, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

:A valid point. Clicking the donate button takes you straight to the donate page (fair enough), where there is only a small link for more information. Following that merely takes you to a page that essentially establishes "Yes, we really are a non-profit, here is our structure and charter to prove it." A more prominent essay on why wikipedia runs this fundraiser every so often, and how that money is used might boost income and confidence in that process. My first thought was "What? Again? Didn't they just do this?" I can't be the only one who thought that. [[User:El Genie|El Genie]] ([[User talk:El Genie|talk]]) 12:23, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
::See [[foundation:Planned Spending Distribution 2007-2008|Planned Spending Distribution 2007-2008]] for what the money was used for last year. Most of it goes on paying for all our domain names and keeping the servers running. [[foundation:What we need the money for (June 2007)|This]] gives a slightly more detailed example, but without the nice chart. The WMF does have a few staff on the payroll, see [[foundation:Staff|Staff]]. [[foundation:2008-2009 Annual Plan Questions and Answers|This]] will give you an idea of what this year's budget will be spent on. Many people seem to misunderstand the difference between [[wikt:income|income]] and [[wikt:profit|profit]]. Happy reading :P. —[[User:Vanderdecken|Vanderdecken]]∴ '''[[User talk:Vanderdecken|∫]][[Special:Emailuser/Vanderdecken|ξ]][[Special:Contributions/Vanderdecken|φ]]''' 09:45, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
:::Indeed! I'm satisfied that it's all good, but how would one normally navigate to these links from the donate button? That's the key point.[[User:El Genie|El Genie]] ([[User talk:El Genie|talk]]) 05:14, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

In all honesty, I feel that that one donation banner is good. However, the content of that donation banner might have to change. I liked last year's banner very much and would have donated if I could. '''<span style="background:Blue;color:FireBrick">&nbsp;[[User:Marlith|<span style="color:Orange;">Marlith</span>]][[User talk:Marlith|<span style="color:Orange;"> (Talk)</span>]]&nbsp;</span>''' 04:17, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest there is nothing wrong with the advertising type. The reason the goal is not being reached is pretty simple - the global economic crisis. Last time we had a fundraiser times were good so the money was raised easily. Today that is not the case. [[Special:Contributions/58.178.57.161|58.178.57.161]] ([[User talk:58.178.57.161|talk]]) 12:31, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
== Why all the image swapping for TFA? ==

Yes, the triforce. It's still PD and ineligible for copyright? Why swap or remove it so many times when it is apropos? '''<span style="background:Blue;color:FireBrick">&nbsp;[[User:Marlith|<span style="color:Orange;">Marlith</span>]][[User talk:Marlith|<span style="color:Orange;"> (Talk)</span>]]&nbsp;</span>''' 05:05, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
:See [[Wikipedia talk:Today's featured article/November 21, 2008#Image]]. --[[Special:Contributions/76.64.76.189|76.64.76.189]] ([[User talk:76.64.76.189|talk]]) 06:34, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

=== Yellow triangles ===

Why are there a set of yellow triangles beside today's FA? The image is not mentioned at all in the text, and is not even included in the article itself. Illustrations on the mainpage should illustrate the text, not intrigue the reader. Please can someone remove the image.--[[User:Scott MacDonald|Scott MacDonald]] ([[User talk:Scott MacDonald|talk]]) 14:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

: The three triangles are the logo of the Zelda franchise.  I think they're most relevant non-copyrighted images that they could find. 
: They appear (partially obscured) on this particular game's box art. [[:Image:ZeldaOoTbox.png]] (On the shield.) [[User:APL|APL]] ([[User talk:APL|talk]]) 15:08, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
::Perhaps. But since they are not on the article or mentioned in the text, they are confusing and not illustrative.--[[User:Scott MacDonald|Scott MacDonald]] ([[User talk:Scott MacDonald|talk]]) 15:16, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
:::Can we keep this discussion in [[Wikipedia talk:Today's featured article/November 21, 2008#Image|one place]]? [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 15:20, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
::yeah, the image of the triforce will confuse people who are unfamiliar of the subject at hand. '''<span style="background:Blue;color:FireBrick">&nbsp;[[User:Marlith|<span style="color:Orange;">Marlith</span>]][[User talk:Marlith|<span style="color:Orange;"> (Talk)</span>]]&nbsp;</span>'''
::: Marlith, can we keep this discussion in [[Wikipedia talk:Today's featured article/November 21, 2008#Image|one place]], please? --[[Special:Contributions/74.14.18.119|74.14.18.119]] ([[User talk:74.14.18.119|talk]]) 19:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Who could not know what "Zelda" is? It is one of the most faboral games next to "Mario".[[User:Firio|Firio]] ([[User talk:Firio|talk]]) 19:27, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
:I didn't know what Zelda was before now. I just read the blurb to find out. '''[[User:Spencer|<span style="color:#082567">Spencer</span>]]'''<sup>[[User talk:Spencer|<span style="color:#FFBF00">T♦</span>]]</sup><sup>[[Special:Contributions/Spencer|<span style="color:#FFBF00">C</span>]]</sup> 00:35, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
:I have a great aunt named Zelda - but I gather she's not what you are talking about. --[[User:Blake the bookbinder|Blake the bookbinder]] ([[User talk:Blake the bookbinder|talk]]) 15:53, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
::We had a TFA on your great aunt? l33t [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 12:25, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
You should have a TFA on [[Pier Gerlofs Donia]] or, maybe later when it passes GA, on [[Touch the Clouds]]. Please look into that. [[User:Jouke Bersma|J.B.]] ([[User talk:Jouke Bersma|talk]]) 12:30, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
:::If you want an article to be TFA you need to nominate it at [[WP:FAC]] [[User:Dark verdant|Dark verdant]] ([[User talk:Dark verdant|talk]]) 13:38, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

== Title of News Article ==

I think, the news article on the Indian Mood Probe is improperly labelled. It currently says "The Moon Impact Probe, released by Indian spacecraft Chandrayaan-1, is successfully crashed into the lunar south pole", whereas the proper way of framing the sentence should be "Successfully landed on the Lunar South Pole"  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/24.240.41.69|24.240.41.69]] ([[User talk:24.240.41.69|talk]]) 06:20, 23 November 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:This has been discussed above: the probe did not land, as that implies a controlled event that does not damage the object. The probe crashed or impacted - it just smacked into the ground at a high velocity. —[[User:Vanderdecken|Vanderdecken]]∴ '''[[User talk:Vanderdecken|∫]][[Special:Emailuser/Vanderdecken|ξ]][[Special:Contributions/Vanderdecken|φ]]''' 15:30, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

:Indian Mood Probe? What does that do? Sounds interesting. Too bad I already have an account ... it would make a great username. [[User:Daniel Case|Daniel Case]] ([[User talk:Daniel Case|talk]]) 15:10, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, its improperly labelled, good you noticed! Now notice this: I've got me a kewl signature thanks to OllieFury and Bilby! <font face="Arial Black"> [[User:Jouke Bersma|<span style="color:#728B22;">Jouke</span>]] [[User talk:Jouke Bersma|<span style="color:#FF8000;">Bersma</span>]] <sub>''[[Special:Contributions/OllieFury|<font color="1B88EE">Contribs]]''</sub></font></font face color> 11:28, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
:There is a discussion above regarding whether it was an impact/crash or if it landed. Also this is not a forum nor for advertisement. Please keep discussion about errors or imporvements to the main page. [[User:Dark verdant|Dark verdant]] ([[User talk:Dark verdant|talk]]) 13:28, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

== LANGUAGES ==

There is a Wikipedia version in Interlingua, its main page link is:
http://ia.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagina_principal
Why is Interlingua not in the "Language" box on te left in the english main page? Esperanto is there. It should go between # Hrvatski and # Íslenska. Is there a logic for its exclusion? Could you correct this mistake please?  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.108.120.162|69.108.120.162]] ([[User talk:69.108.120.162|talk]]) 20:52, 25 November 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Main_Page_FAQ#In_what_order_are_the_other_Wikipedias_displayed.3F_Where.27s_my_language.3F See FAQ] --[[User:Siradia|Siradia]] ([[User talk:Siradia|talk]]) 22:52, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
== Meta? ==

This may not be the place to report this, but why does it say "Support Meta" in the fundraising banner? Did it somehow get mixed up? [[User:Lithoderm|<b><span style="color:#2F4F4F;">Litho</span></b>]][[User talk:Lithoderm|<b><span style="color:#464646;">derm</span></b>]] 01:53, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
:And it's back to saying Wikipedia now. Never mind. [[User:Lithoderm|<b><span style="color:#2F4F4F;">Litho</span></b>]][[User talk:Lithoderm|<b><span style="color:#464646;">derm</span></b>]] 02:13, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
::The banner crashed on Wiktionary a couple of days ago. As well as being ugly, it's apparently buggy. [[User:J Milburn|J Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 17:14, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


On my computer I can't see the main page at all. <u><font face=tahoma>[[User:Danielaustinhall12|<font color=blue>'''Danielaustinhall'''</font>]][[User talk:Danielaustinhall12|<font color=gold>'''12'''</font>]]</font></u> <small>(Go [[Michigan Wolverines|Wolverines]]!)</small></font> 16:54, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
:It's still there. Have you tried [[WP:BYPASS|purging your cache]]? [[User:J Milburn|J Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 17:14, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
== Christmas-themed DYK ==

I thought I'd give a heads-up here to a discussion at [[Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know#Christmas_DYK]].  DYK has proposed having a [[Christmas]] theme on December 25, and relaxing the rules on when creations/expansions of Christmas-related articles took place to allow more articles on this topic to qualify.  This is similar to the recent Halloween theme and an April Fool's theme earlier this year.  Other users have suggested that this is biased, as [[Hannukah]], [[Kwanzaa]], and the [[Islamic New Year]] all fall during the week of December 25 (Hannukah actually overlaps), but articles about those topics would be excluded from DYK inclusion on the 25th or would not be subject to the same relaxed rules.  More voices would be welcome at the discussion to determine a consensus. [[User:Karanacs|Karanacs]] ([[User talk:Karanacs|talk]]) 18:27, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

: Then have a Hannukah+Kwanzaa+Islamic New Year+Christmas-themed DYK ''week''.  Happy Holidays! --[[User:PFHLai|PFHLai]] ([[User talk:PFHLai|talk]]) 19:32, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
*:MerryHappykwanzahannukah.....ah scrap, can't remember that Cell Phone Company slogan.....--[[User:293.xx.xxx.xx|293.xx.xxx.xx]] ([[User talk:293.xx.xxx.xx|talk]]) 11:11, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
::i agree. do a mix of all them to avoid bias. it would look much more 'international' that way too [[Special:Contributions/99.238.19.139|99.238.19.139]] ([[User talk:99.238.19.139|talk]]) 19:56, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

International my ass! If you want to do it international, also include a [[Sinterklaas]] theme (there are more dutch people then jews on this earth so sinterklaas would be more suitable then Hanukah would). [[User:Jouke Bersma|J.B.]] ([[User talk:Jouke Bersma|talk]]) 12:01, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
: So go work your ass off to get some [[Sinterklaas]]-themed DYKs onto the main page, [[User:Jouke Bersma|J.B.]] --[[Special:Contributions/74.14.19.69|74.14.19.69]] ([[User talk:74.14.19.69|talk]]) 17:09, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

== TFA Suggustion ==

Where could I suggust an article for TFA? "Under the Bridge" was an article I came across today and it looked pretty nice. It hasn't been a TFA as of now so maybe it could be used in the near future. Just a suggustion if someone is ever at a loss. [[User:AMM The Great|AMM The Great]] ([[User talk:AMM The Great|talk]]) 02:50, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
:You are looking for '''[[WP:TFA/R]]'''. Cheers. [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] [[User talk:Zzyzx11|(Talk)]] 02:51, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

== ITN deaths again ==

I thought that deaths ([[Ibrahim Nasir]]) were not supposed to be featured in ITN unless the person was a current office holder or the death had some other widespread impact. Has this policy changed? [[anonymous|Ellis]] 01:14, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
: From [[WP:ITNMP]]: ''As of now, deaths are being judged on a case-by-case basis and should not be put up until a consensus has been established on WP:ITN/C.''  
: See also: [[WP:ITN/C#ITN candidates for November 22]]. --[[Special:Contributions/199.71.174.100|199.71.174.100]] ([[User talk:199.71.174.100|talk]]) 02:31, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
== Hiding TFA ==

How do I hide the "Featured Article Today" section? I just don't want to look at it.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/67.183.166.91|67.183.166.91]] ([[User talk:67.183.166.91|talk]]) 20:18, 27 November 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Try out some of the versions on [[Main Page/Alternatives]]; if you find one you like, bookmark it. [[User:Modest Genius|<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b>]] [[User_talk:Modest Genius|<sup>talk</sup>]] 21:08, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
:Wear a jockstrap. It won't hide the section but it will hide the dirty, embarrassing, ungodly feelings you get by looking at it. --[[Special:Contributions/86.168.108.98|86.168.108.98]] ([[User talk:86.168.108.98|talk]]) 23:36, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
:: Don't bend the obscure meaning of the above statement. It might have more to do with the film discussed above than any severe allergy to the aforementioned ungodly closeted homosexual desires... --➨<span style="color:red">[[User: Candlewicke|Candlewicke]]</span> <sup> :) [[User:Candlewicke/List of signatories|Sign]]/[[User talk:Candlewicke|Talk]] </sup> 12:30, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
== Albania ITN ==

I don't want to sound like a whinger, nor am I complaining or saying anything is wrong about this. I am merely pointing out that there are three items concerning Albania in to-day's (11.28) ITN. Thank you for your attention. [[Special:Contributions/70.16.16.109|70.16.16.109]] ([[User talk:70.16.16.109|talk]]) 01:48, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
: Where? I don't see anything about [[Albania]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:In_the_news&oldid=254483422 on ITN right now]. --[[Special:Contributions/199.71.174.100|199.71.174.100]] ([[User talk:199.71.174.100|talk]]) 02:25, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Begging y'all's pardon. I meant OTD. [[Special:Contributions/70.16.16.109|70.16.16.109]] ([[User talk:70.16.16.109|talk]]) 15:43, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
::It's not that bad. I remembered a few months ago an admin had to add a manga item just to offset the 4 U.S. items. &ndash;'''[[User:Howard the Duck|<span style="color:#FFA500;">Howard</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Howard the Duck|<span style="color:#FFA500;">the</span>]] [[User talk:Howard the Duck|<span style="color:#FFA500;">Duck</span>]]''' 17:33, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
== Featured Article Today ==

This is a minor issue, but the featured article about Harvey Milk, while interesting, is the subject of a film to be released shortly.  Unfortunately, after reading the abridged version on the front page I now know what happens in the film.  Stupid, I know, but I'd rather not know the ending to films I'm interested in seeing before they come out.  In future, perhaps you could wait until after film releases before providing more information.  I'm aware that Milk is an established name, but he is not known in England. [[Special:Contributions/78.86.151.128|78.86.151.128]] ([[User 
:Please see [[WP:SPOILER]] [[User:Modest Genius|<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b>]] [[User_talk:Modest Genius|<sup>talk</sup>]] 19:56, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
:Yes, why the hell didn't Wikipedia get into a time machine, go back to 1929, and kill Harvey Milk's parents so that he wouldn't spoil the plot of the movie about his life by living it?
:Does Wikipedia even care about its readers? --[[Special:Contributions/86.168.108.98|86.168.108.98]] ([[User talk:86.168.108.98|talk]]) 23:34, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

:: Such a time machine would better serve Wikipedia if it can be used to prevent vandalism and other dumb edits on this talk page. --[[Special:Contributions/199.71.174.100|199.71.174.100]] ([[User talk:199.71.174.100|talk]]) 02:50, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

::: Did the information serve an encyclopedic purpose? If the film has not yet been released ought a detailed synopsis be included? Especially if the article itself isn't even about the film but the man within? --➨<span style="color:red">[[User: Candlewicke|Candlewicke]]</span> <sup> :) [[User:Candlewicke/List of signatories|Sign]]/[[User talk:Candlewicke|Talk]] </sup> 12:23, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
::::If the film was a ''fictional story'', I might agree. But when you are dealing with a film '''''based on the real life of a notable person from the past''''', with hundreds of articles and references written about him, I do not see how it is "a spoiler" that needs to be censored from the Main Page. [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] [[User talk:Zzyzx11|(Talk)]] 00:29, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Nobody forced you to read the article. At least, I hope not. [[User:Grandmasterka|<span style="color:red;">Grand</span>]][[User talk:Grandmasterka|<span style="color:blue;">master</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Grandmasterka|<span style="color:green;">ka</span>]] 02:19, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

For what it's worth. let me suggest that the screenwriter and director probably intended the film to be seen by folks broadly familiar with Milk's life, and that the film's characterizations probably cannot be fully appreciated if you don't know the history.--[[User:Pharos|Pharos]] ([[User talk:Pharos|talk]]) 17:33, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
:This is one of the more bizzare spoiler complaints I've come across. Let's just hope we don't feature Jesus Christ on the main page. I'm sure there are a lot of people who haven't finished his [[New Testament|biogr]][[Quran|aphies]] [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 10:23, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
::How is the choser of the featured article supposed to know that there is a film coming out about someone. I've never heard of the guy nor knew about a film. [[User:Dark verdant|Dark verdant]] ([[User talk:Dark verdant|talk]]) 16:25, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
:::Well if it's an up to date FA and a film with decent notability the FA itself will probably say. And actually the FA in question does say [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 17:59, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

== Monitor poll ==

Polling to figure out who is using what monitor resolution; this way we can factor that into future redesign attempts, as we know stuff shows up differently depending on aspect ratio. Poll is [[Wikipedia:Main page/Monitor poll|here]]. Also, we're trying to reach mostly readers; vote on whether or not you'd be ok with using [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]] to notify people of the poll's existence. Cheers, [[User:Master of Puppets|<span style="color:#7d7d7d;cursor:move;">'''M'''aster '''o'''f '''P'''uppets</span>]] [[User talk:Master of Puppets|<sub style="color:#7d7d7d;cursor:help;">Call me MoP! :D</sub>]] 01:29, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
:This is silly. The user's browser can be obtained by the site itself - I suggest you contact Wikimedia for some statistics. This poll will only include people who know who to edit, who found the poll, and can be bothered to write in it. --[[User:Teggles|Teggles]] ([[User talk:Teggles|talk]]) 03:31, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
::This is nothing to do with their browser, it's the resolution and aspect ratio of their screen, which cannot be obtained from the user agent. —[[User:Vanderdecken|Vanderdecken]]∴ '''[[User talk:Vanderdecken|∫]][[Special:Emailuser/Vanderdecken|ξ]][[Special:Contributions/Vanderdecken|φ]]''' 12:59, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
:::Which is ''also'' irrelevant to wikipedia, what's needed is the size of their browser ''window''. [[User:Modest Genius|<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b>]] [[User_talk:Modest Genius|<sup>talk</sup>]] 17:14, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
:::: In my experience, many people who always browse full-screen can't be easily made to understand that other people don't. It's some sort of weird force of habit thing. You can explain all day the various reasons for browsing windowed, but in the end they still come away thinking that you're talking about some bizarre exceptional circumstances, and a few odd-balls who don't know how to maximize their window. [[Special:Contributions/24.2.176.64|24.2.176.64]] ([[User talk:24.2.176.64|talk]]) 17:44, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
:::The resolution of the user's screen cannot be obtained from the browser ID string (I assume you mean User-Agent), but it can easily be obtained using Javascript's screen.width and screen.height variables. When I said the user's browser, I meant their resolution, which can be easily obtained by the website itself. This poll will be incredibly inaccurate.  --[[User:Teggles|Teggles]] ([[User talk:Teggles|talk]]) 12:05, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

== Terror attacks in Mumbai ==

{{resolved}}
The In the News section describes these attacks as "Terror attacks" - which they obviously are- but doesn't that contravene [[WP:WTA]]? [[User:NoCal100|NoCal100]] ([[User talk:NoCal100|talk]]) 01:53, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

:Pls suggest alternative wording at [[WP:ERRORS]]. --[[Special:Contributions/74.14.20.24|74.14.20.24]] ([[User talk:74.14.20.24|talk]]) 03:18, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
::Suggestion: "Attacks" instead of "Terror attacks". --[[User:Teggles|Teggles]] ([[User talk:Teggles|talk]]) 12:10, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
:::Pls suggest alternative wording at [[WP:ERRORS]] (or [[WP:ITN/C]].) Posting here doesn't always get you the attention of the right admins.  --[[Special:Contributions/74.14.20.24|74.14.20.24]] ([[User talk:74.14.20.24|talk]]) 13:16, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

::::Done. [[User:Master of Puppets|<span style="color:#7d7d7d;cursor:move;">'''M'''aster '''o'''f '''P'''uppets</span>]] [[User talk:Master of Puppets|<sub style="color:#7d7d7d;cursor:help;">Call me MoP! :D</sub>]] 10:18, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

== What "at least" Really Means ==

Concerning the recent terrorist attacks in Mombei, the term "at least (#) killed" was used. The problem is, that a number (190+) seems to to have been settled upon that was at the higher end of the estimated killed. The phrase "at least" should be the SMALLEST number agreed upon (the actual body count was around 80+ during most of this time), not the largest. Current number of those killed is at around 180. If an airplane carrying 200 people goes missing and you find 4 bodies floating in the ocean, the death toll is "at least 4", NOT "at least 200" until you can confirm the plane's wreakage or more bodies. [[User:CFLeon|CFLeon]] ([[User talk:CFLeon|talk]]) 21:14, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

: Pls suggest alternative wording at [[WP:ERRORS]] (or [[WP:ITN/C]].) Posting here doesn't always get you the attention of the right admins. --[[Special:Contributions/74.14.18.48|74.14.18.48]] ([[User talk:74.14.18.48|talk]]) 21:27, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
== Why is the Main Page in [[:Category:Articles containing potentially dated statements from 2007]]? ==

{{tlx|sudo}}
-- [[User:Gurch|Gurch]] ([[User talk:Gurch|talk]]) 17:55, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
:Fixed.-[[User talk:gadfium|<span style="font-family:cursive; color:#808080;">gadfium</span>]] 18:25, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

== News ==

'''"A bombing in Peshawar, Pakistan, kills 17 people and injures at least 47."''' That should be changed to '''"kills 29"''' and '''"injures over 100"''' asap. That's what [[5 December 2008 Peshawar bombing|our article]] says at least. Death tolls have a way of rising. . . --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 19:49, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

:Pls suggest re-phrasing at [[WP:ERRORS]] (or [[WP:ITN/C]].) Posting here doesn't always get you the attention of the right admins. --[[Special:Contributions/74.14.19.137|74.14.19.137]] ([[User talk:74.14.19.137|talk]]) 20:02, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

== Adding Telugu to list of 20K+ languages ==

Telugu (te) Wikipedia has 40,000 articles, but it has not been listed on the homepage. Can one of the admins add it? Thanks!  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/71.142.95.161|71.142.95.161]] ([[User talk:71.142.95.161|talk]]) 23:22, 6 December 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Each Wikipedia must also have a depth of at least 5 to be listed on the main page. Telugu's currently has only a depth of 4. See the FAQ linked at the top of this page for further info. --[[User:Siradia|Siradia]] ([[User talk:Siradia|talk]]) 00:22, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
== donations ==

How long is the donation bar going to stay up? I've been refreshing for a few minutes and no one has donated, I think Wikimedia has to bite the bullet here and realize that everyone who wanted to donate has donated, and that there isn't really a way they're going to get to 6 million dollars without some sort of corporate sponsorship before next years donations are needed. Just a thought, [[Special:Contributions/125.239.54.243|125.239.54.243]] ([[User talk:125.239.54.243|talk]]) 10:33, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Get an account and in your preferences you can remove it.[[User talk:Dr. Blofeld| <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;"> <span style="color:#fef;background:black;">'''''Count Blofeld'''''</span></span>]] 10:58, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the point of these instructions. I mean creating an account or even logging in is a much bigger pain in the neck than clicking collapse or simply SCROLLING DOWN for God's sake.

One more thing: If the [[U.S. government]] can donate 700 billion $ to banks and car companies, surely they can contribute 3 million $ to keep a WORLD OF KNOWLEDGE up and running. Someone should tell them that!!!!!!!         [[Special:Contributions/59.96.138.42|59.96.138.42]] ([[User talk:59.96.138.42|talk]]) 12:21, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Well if you can't be bothered to join the community and log in which takes just seconds then don;t expect to have privelages [[User talk:Dr. Blofeld| <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;"> <span style="color:#fef;background:black;">'''''Count Blofeld'''''</span></span>]] 12:23, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Funny. I'm an [[WP:Admin|admin]] in reality. I just have a policy of not logging in when it isn't needed. Like now! Coz I'm not supposed to be writing this here as a [[WP:ROGUE|responsible admin]]. Anyway the point is, being able to make the "Donate Now" box disappear is NOT a privilege!!! [[Special:Contributions/59.96.138.42|59.96.138.42]] ([[User talk:59.96.138.42|talk]]) 12:53, 6 December 2008 (UTC) (anonymous)
:You can always create another account for when you are not editing [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 08:05, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

You certainly have a point about the U.S government. $3 million is like 3 cents to every body else. [[User talk:Dr. Blofeld| <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;"> <span style="color:#fef;background:black;">'''''Count Blofeld'''''</span></span>]] 13:12, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

:If the U. S. government comes up with the $3,000,000, are we going to change all the varied English spellings to American English? --[[User:Blake the bookbinder|Blake the bookbinder]] ([[User talk:Blake the bookbinder|talk]]) 17:58, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
::Nope. [[Special:Contributions/Zain Ebrahim111|Zain Ebrahim]] ([[User talk:Zain Ebrahim111|talk]]) 18:01, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't it usually run until the holidays?  Besides, it's pretty inconspicuous once you've hit the "Collapse" button.  You can do that even as an IP.  [[User:APL|APL]] ([[User talk:APL|talk]]) 21:24, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

== Design Suggestion ==

How about we make the main page bulky and terrible-- stripe the links down the center as a floating table, add a flashing News Alert marquee on the bottom in javascript, articles read in the left frame but always a little too wide so you have to scroll from side to side each line, in your right frame you have your "status", "friends", and a small microsoft banner ad in the bottom corner, and, to finish 'er off, crowned top and center we'll place the new Wikipedia globe: an animated gif that tweaks a little each time it spins all the way around, forever hanging there in its infinite loop-- so that we'll be all jazzed when the after a month when they bring the old Wikipedia back. Any takers?
-[[User:Bordello|Bordello]] ([[User talk:Bordello|talk]]) 10:57, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

: Go and have fun at [[Wikipedia:2008 main page redesign proposal]]. --[[Special:Contributions/74.13.129.191|74.13.129.191]] ([[User talk:74.13.129.191|talk]]) 17:19, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
== Access to Wikipedia from UK being blocked ==

{{resolved|See [[#IWFsolved|below]]. —[[User:Vanderdecken|Vanderdecken]]∴ '''[[User talk:Vanderdecken|∫]][[Special:Emailuser/Vanderdecken|ξ]][[Special:Contributions/Vanderdecken|φ]]''' 20:15, 9 December 2008 (UTC)}}
{{Wikinews|British ISPs restrict access to Wikipedia amid child pornography allegations | Wikimedia, IWF respond to block of Wikipedia over child pornography allegations}}

See [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Major UK ISPs reduced to using 2 IP addresses]], which surely deserves mention on the main page. [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 01:22, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

: Why would this deserve mention on the main page?  Where on the main page do you want this?  This is current event, so forget OTD. You obviously don't have a featured article yet, so forget TFA.  If you don't have a brand new article or a recently expanded article about this, forget DYK.  If you don't have an article substantially updated with news-related materials, forget ITN.  Go take some pictures. Good Luck at TFP.  :-) --[[Special:Contributions/74.14.19.137|74.14.19.137]] ([[User talk:74.14.19.137|talk]]) 01:42, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
::I agree this is worrying, but I don't think a note on the main page is actually necessary. In response to 74.14..., I think Andy was meaning a general notice at the top of the page, alerting users to the fact that major corporations are telling us what we can and can't view. For what it's worth, the pages have been blocked for me, but I believe you can get around the block by logging on to the [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Main_Page secure server]. [[User:J Milburn|J Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 02:26, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

:::Whilst I'm glad to have had this brought to my attention, I can't see why or how it should have anything to do with the main page [[User:Modest Genius|<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b>]] [[User_talk:Modest Genius|<sup>talk</sup>]] 08:07, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

::::The suggestion was to put mention of it on the main page. The consensus is we shouldn't put it on the main page, but the discussion was on topic [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:49, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

:::::I see no consensus. [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 20:49, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

::::::Here's one for you: We are not attention seekers. [[WP:BEANS]]. [[User:Message From Xenu|<span style="color:blue;">Message</span> <span style="color:green;">from</span> <b style="color:red;">XENU</b>]][[User Talk:Message From Xenu|<sup style="color:gold;">complaints? leave me a message!</sup>]] 20:53, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

::::::Four people (at the time, now apparently six) who understand what the main page is about counts as a consensus when there is only one opposing who seemingly doesn't really understand what the main page is for and has made no solid policy based arguments to counteract the policy based arguments made by the other editors. Note also the discussion was likely seen by more people who didn't voice their opinion because they felt the existing discussion was sufficient to establish there is no reason to put a notice on the main page. Remember consensus is not a vote. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:09, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
:::::::You appear to dismiss both my knowledge and understanding on the sole basis of disagreeing with them. Consensus is indeed  not a vote, which makes your choice to state of numbers somewhat unfathomable. [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 12:58, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

:Not really, no. It has no particular importance when compared to other world news, and is not worth a section of its own. --[[User:Kizor|Kiz]][[User_talk:Kizor|<span style="color:black;">o</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Kizor|<span style="color:green;">r</span>]] 20:54, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
::::::Oh and, [[WP:POINT]]. [[User:Message From Xenu|<span style="color:blue;">Message</span> <span style="color:green;">from</span> <b style="color:red;">XENU</b>]][[User Talk:Message From Xenu|<sup style="color:gold;">complaints? leave me a message!</sup>]] 21:01, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
* This discussion is continuing at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/2008 IWF action]]. -- [[User:Pretzels|'''P<span style="font-size:0.9em;">retzels</span>''']]<sup>[[User talk:Pretzels|Talk!]]</sup> 21:15, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

:This would hardly be the first time that groups have blocked access to part/all of Wikipedia (e.g. Chinese government, Arab governments) - this is just raising a fuss because it's the UK and the technical method caused us noticeable problems. [[User:the wub|the wub]] [[User_talk:The wub|<span style="color:green;">"?!"</span>]] 21:16, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

::Remind me again what percentage of edits come from UK IPs? Have you seen [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/2008 IWF action#Press coverage|today's press coverage]] - including the single most popular news story on the BBC website? It links only to http://www.wikipedia.org/ [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 09:12, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

:::Given that the media has picked this up and interest - at least in the UK - does indeed appear to be widespread, there seems to be a case for submitting this to [[WP:ITN/C]], which I would encourage you to do. However, it wouldn't surprise me if the editors there reject it on the ground of being a) non unique and b) mostly of interest to UK readers. Good luck though. [[User:Modest Genius|<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b>]] [[User_talk:Modest Genius|<sup>talk</sup>]] 12:52, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

:::Guys, [[WP:SELF]].  This event has to be notable on its own, not notable and interesting just because it's about WP. &mdash;[[User:Politizer|Politizer]]&nbsp;<small><sup>'''[[User talk:Politizer|talk]]'''</sup></small>/<small><sub>'''[[Special:Contributions/Politizer|contribs]]'''</sub></small> 16:46, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


What's going on here? Are we delusional? The Wikipedia block is in the main news? Guys, get out of your wikiworld and get back to real-life! --''[[User:Brewcrewer|<span style="font family:Arial;color:green">brew</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Brewcrewer|<span style="font-family:Arial;color:#2E82F4">crewer</span>]] [[User talk:Brewcrewer|(yada, yada)]]'' 05:07, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
:: Pls see [[WP:ITN/C]]. --[[Special:Contributions/199.71.174.100|199.71.174.100]] ([[User talk:199.71.174.100|talk]]) 05:13, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

: [[Wikipedia|Paradise]] is [[IWF block of Wikipedia|Lost]] on Milton's 400th Birthday?  Poor Brits.... --[[Special:Contributions/199.71.174.100|199.71.174.100]] ([[User talk:199.71.174.100|talk]]) 04:30, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
:: Ha! Cute. --[[Special:Contributions/74.13.129.191|74.13.129.191]] ([[User talk:74.13.129.191|talk]]) 17:17, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

{{anchor|IWFsolved}}
:'''Now resolved - the IWF [http://www.iwf.org.uk/media/news.251.htm reversed their decision at 18:30] GMT.''' The block is now officially lifted, and most ISPs should restore access within 24hrs. See [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/2008 IWF action]] for more info, current news as it happens and a complete history of the event. —[[User:Vanderdecken|Vanderdecken]]∴ '''[[User talk:Vanderdecken|∫]][[Special:Emailuser/Vanderdecken|ξ]][[Special:Contributions/Vanderdecken|φ]]''' 20:15, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

:: So, [[Wikipedia|Paradise]] is Regained on Milton's 400th Birthday, too! :-)  --[[Special:Contributions/199.71.174.100|199.71.174.100]] ([[User talk:199.71.174.100|talk]]) 23:06, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

== Birthday ??? ==

I remember a past posting on this page that stated that birthdays were not placed on the main page, any reason why there is now a birthday?  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/24.222.45.34|24.222.45.34]] ([[User talk:24.222.45.34|talk]]) 14:28, 9 December 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:I don't recall such a post, but according to the [[Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries#Criteria for listing items on this set of pages|OTD guidelines]], birthdays should only be listed on centennials; Milton's 400th, therefore, is appropriate. [[User:Nufy8|Nufy8]] ([[User talk:Nufy8|talk]]) 15:45, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
::Any good reason for having it noted on both OTD and DYK though? I would have thought one mention would be enough... [[Special:Contributions/87.113.95.66|87.113.95.66]] ([[User talk:87.113.95.66|talk]]) 18:56, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
:::Perhaps, but then again the articles in the DYK blurb fit the "nominated article must be no more than five days old" [[Wikipedia:Did you know#DYK rules|criterion]] since they were started just a few days ago. I would bring the matter up at [[Template talk:Did you know]] if you feel that the Milton references should be scaled back. [[User:Nufy8|Nufy8]] ([[User talk:Nufy8|talk]]) 19:59, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

::::Presumably, starting those articles was prompted by the 400th anniversary. I don't see any problem with using them. [[User:Modest Genius|<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b>]] [[User_talk:Modest Genius|<sup>talk</sup>]] 22:09, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
== Systemic Bias ==

It is well known that Wikipedia has a [[Bias_in_wikipedia|systemic bias]] due to the majority of editors belonging to certain particular identities. There are some attempts to minimize this. At least main page should be devoid of such bias. Featured articles of Video Games is one such thing which keeps coming back on main page. [[User:Ahirwav|Ahirwav]] ([[User talk:Ahirwav|talk]]) 05:47, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
:If an article is an FA it would've been at the main page no matter what its subject is. Just write articles on "more scholarly" articles so off-set it. Even objecting at [[WP:FAC]] on grounds that "it is a video game" won't count either. &ndash;'''[[User:Howard the Duck|<span style="color:#FFA500;">Howard</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Howard the Duck|<span style="color:#FFA500;">the</span>]] [[User talk:Howard the Duck|<span style="color:#FFA500;">Duck</span>]]''' 06:07, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

:People edit what they know. Just appears that people work more on building knowledge of video games, as opposed to [[Special:Random|this]]. No one's stopping you from adding valuable information to the areas you know most about, and possibly getting them to [[WP:FA|featured]] status. <small>&ndash; <span style="border:1px solid #000;padding:1px;">&nbsp;[[User:Latics|<span style="color:#990000;">'''LATICS'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Latics|<font style="color:#fff;background:#990000;">&nbsp;talk&nbsp;</font>]]</span></small> 06:18, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

::Are featured articles selected randomly from the FA list? What is the probability that a video game article should come back so often? Although, I dont have the actual statistics. [[User:Ahirwav|Ahirwav]] ([[User talk:Ahirwav|talk]]) 06:43, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

:::Featured articles aren't chosen randomly. They are chosen by the FA director. However perhaps rather then making random complaints you may want to look at the statistics? Whenever I have I've found we tend to have at most 2 FAs/month on video games, often less. While I'm not saying this isn't still somewhat of a systemic bias we aren't having FAs on video games all the time as you seem to be infering. And I would say we definitely have video game FAs less often then their numbers would imply (in other words theres a bias against video game FAs) [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:26, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

::::There are currently 2,327 FAs, of which 104 are classified under 'Video gaming'. If these were chosen from randomly, that would be roughly one gaming TFA every 22 days. I don't think there are significantly more happening than that; there are of course the added complications that the TFAs aren't chosen randomly and the longer an FA has been listed the more likely it is to have been used already. Systemic bias exists, we acknowledge that. The best way to counter it is to write more featured articles in fields such as Linguistics, Chemistry or Philosophy, not doctor the choice of TFA. [[User:Modest Genius|<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b>]] [[User_talk:Modest Genius|<sup>talk</sup>]] 09:52, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

:::::The last time a video game was featured was November 21.  Since then, there have been many TFA's related to famous people.  I think famous historical and present-day personages are being unfairly represented.  Clearly, we need... dare I say it... moar catz. [[Special:Contributions/168.9.120.8|168.9.120.8]] ([[User talk:168.9.120.8|talk]]) 18:23, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
== Albert speer selected article ==

Second time this month this has been a selected article, are they randomly selected or is it manual. [[User:Lrodilg|Lrodilg]] ([[User talk:lrodilg|talk]]) 00:40, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
:It's a nazi conspiracy[[User:JanderVK|JanderVK]] ([[User talk:JanderVK|talk]]) 01:21, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
: Please specify when this month besides today this has been a selected article. Don't lie. --[[Special:Contributions/74.13.130.73|74.13.130.73]] ([[User talk:74.13.130.73|talk]]) 07:02, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

:See [[Wikipedia:Today's featured article/December 2008|this month's archive]], or [[Wikipedia:Today's featured article/November 2008|last month's]]. Not been selected in either month. The article was only [[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Albert Speer|promoted to featured status]] in late October... <small>&ndash; <span style="border:1px solid #000;padding:1px;">&nbsp;[[User:Latics|<span style="color:#990000;">'''LATICS'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Latics|<font style="color:#fff;background:#990000;">&nbsp;talk&nbsp;</font>]]</span></small> 07:14, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

:FAs only get to be on the main page for a day... unless you're [[Barack Obama]]. &ndash;'''[[User:Howard the Duck|<span style="color:#FFA500;">Howard</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Howard the Duck|<span style="color:#FFA500;">the</span>]] [[User talk:Howard the Duck|<span style="color:#FFA500;">Duck</span>]]''' 14:21, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
== Human Rights violation in main page. ==

{{resolved}}
There is a picture in your main page that violates human rights [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1f/Dec2008-riot-komotini-2_M-cropped_-_ITN.jpg]. It is a cropped copy of a picture [http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Εικόνα:Dec2008-riot-komotini-2.jpg] that has been replaced in commons. I'm not aware if there is another copy. Please replace it.--[[User:Dimorsitanos|Dimorsitanos]] ([[User talk:Dimorsitanos|talk]]) 19:12, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
:In what way does the image violate human rights? [[User:Nufy8|Nufy8]] ([[User talk:Nufy8|talk]]) 19:26, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm informing you on the matter with a discussion that took place in the original source of the uploading, in Commons at [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Please_delete_older_pic_-_human_rights Please_delete_older_pic_-_human_rights]--[[User:Dimorsitanos|Dimorsitanos]] ([[User talk:Dimorsitanos|talk]]) 20:04, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

It seems that the original complaint (which has now popped up lots of places) is that because the guys who covered most of their faces in public didn't cover all of their faces in public, this might violate German [[personality rights]] laws (yes, German !?). So far as enwiki goes, that means nothing - there are no restrictions on public photography that apply here. I also don't think anybody's usefully identifiable in the quality image regardless, so there's no real ethical issue in my opinion. Given that this is a useful free image of an actual event that's on the Main Page, it ought to stay. <span  style="white-space:nowrap">— [[User:Gavia immer|Gavia immer]] ([[User talk:Gavia immer|talk]])</span> 20:19, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

:I agree on the legal issue, but not on the practical or moral ones, I think that some figures are identifiable. So if there is a law on public assembly during riots, or if say, the figure at the back is shown in another picture throwing a stone, then this picture might provide evidence against them Or they might simply not want their family to know that they were there.--[[User:Peter cohen|Peter cohen]] ([[User talk:Peter cohen|talk]]) 20:31, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
::Would it be inappropriate to say "If you don't want your family to know you took part in a riot, don't take part in a riot?" or "If you don't want pictures of you firebombing police cars all over the Internet, refrain from firebombing police cars?" [[User:Fvasconcellos|Fvasconcellos]]<small>&nbsp;([[User talk:Fvasconcellos|t]]·[[Special:Contributions/Fvasconcellos|c]])</small> 20:44, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
:::This matter is not about distinguishing whether the action and critisism is appropriate or not. I think I highlighted the legal part of the participation (of anyone on the planet) in a possible action of filing in Greece (or elsewhere). --[[User:Dimorsitanos|Dimorsitanos]] ([[User talk:Dimorsitanos|talk]]) 20:47, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
:::I see no firebombs in the picture. I see four people there only one of which is carrying out a violent act.--[[User:Peter cohen|Peter cohen]] ([[User talk:Peter cohen|talk]]) 20:55, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
:::That's like saying, "If you don't want the police to shoot and kill you, don't throw bombs at them." Which apparantly is a radical idea in Greece. --[[Special:Contributions/71.163.75.92|71.163.75.92]] ([[User talk:71.163.75.92|talk]]) 21:02, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Notice that I never talked about personality rights or german law. I think I was clear at the original place the file was uploaded in Commons.--[[User:Dimorsitanos|Dimorsitanos]] ([[User talk:Dimorsitanos|talk]]) 20:41, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

:My understanding of what you were asking at Commons is based on my reading of what you wrote at Commons. Decide for yourself if that makes the original "clear" or not. <span  style="white-space:nowrap">— [[User:Gavia immer|Gavia immer]] ([[User talk:Gavia immer|talk]])</span> 20:57, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

:I have no clue what human rights were violated. But anyway, a 1/5-reduced version has been uploaded. Faces were already unidentifiable before and should be more unidentifiable now. Hope this helps. --[[User:PFHLai|PFHLai]] ([[User talk:PFHLai|talk]]) 21:09, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
::Also note we don't care about German law. <span>[[User:Prodego|<span style="color:darkgreen;">''Prodego''</span>]] [[User talk:Prodego|<sup style="color:darkgreen;">talk</sup>]]</span> 21:30, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

:No, Dimorsitanos, you are not being clear - at least not clear enough for a situation where someone might disagree with you. You keep repeating that our posting of the photo is a violation of human rights, but you never specify which codification of human rights you refer to ([[Universal Declaration of Human Rights|the UN version]], [[European Convention on Human Rights|the EU version]], the USA version? Not everyone agrees what constitutes human rights, let alone how they should be protected.). Nor do you ever clearly articulate which particular principle you believe is being violated. Even if you have, you haven't clarified how the codex and principle you have in mind is specifically applicable to this particular photo, or how the Wikimedia foundation (specifically the English Wikipedia), being headquartered in the USA, is bound (either legally or morally) to follow these particular principles. In this and other things, you are more likely to get the desired effect by fully explaining yourself, rather than making strident demands (which is how your first message above comes off). Accusing someone of a human rights violations is a serious accusation - you should be prepared to back up such an accusation with evidence. -- [[Special:Contributions/128.104.112.113|128.104.112.113]] ([[User talk:128.104.112.113|talk]]) 21:36, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

::First of all, I should be prepared to do so if I had made an accusation against a spesific person or entity and one reading the discussion would probably find it difficult to prove so. There are spesific articles in the greek constitution I am prepared to explain if called to do so within a legal context (and not a discussion and first warning context) for a possible moral firing (even not consciously) of the intense conditions right now in Greece, after a possible case of filing people (or participating in the act by keeping copies of filed people) in a small town. --[[User:Dimorsitanos|Dimorsitanos]] ([[User talk:Dimorsitanos|talk]]) 22:07, 13 December 2008 (UTC) Also notice that I do not practice law myself but may hire a professional for a possible legal case and explain the case in detail if called to do so.--[[User:Dimorsitanos|Dimorsitanos]] ([[User talk:Dimorsitanos|talk]]) 22:10, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

It's strange but although resolution is low, when i click on the image it opens in full resolution. I don't know if it is my computer or your system.
Also, in commons, an original file of the uncropped image is kept at the bottom. I asked for the deletion of the history files that could be retrieved by someone too. Keeping these files may considered an act of filing itself. (in US law too)--[[User:Dimorsitanos|Dimorsitanos]] ([[User talk:Dimorsitanos|talk]]) 21:31, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
:Clicking the image opens the low res image. That image has a link to the high resolution version. The reason we use low res is only to save bandwith, so that everyone visiting the main page doesn't have to download huge files. <span>[[User:Prodego|<span style="color:darkgreen;">''Prodego''</span>]] [[User talk:Prodego|<sup style="color:darkgreen;">talk</sup>]]</span> 21:37, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

: Dimorsitanos, if you want things done at WCommons, please ask at WCommons. [[:File:Dec2008-riot-komotini-2 M-cropped - ITN.jpg|The only version of the image in question]] we still have in English Wikipedia is a cropped, reduced copy used as a thumbnail.  It's a temporary image file meant to be used on MainPage briefly, and will be deleted soon after. There is NO clear violation of any human rights, and German laws don't apply. Can we get back to building this encyclopedia? [[Wikipedia:No legal threats|No legal threats]], please! --[[User:PFHLai|PFHLai]] ([[User talk:PFHLai|talk]]) 22:16, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

::When did I ever talk about german laws? When did I ever say that if not taken away, legal action on my behalf '''will''' take place? When did I say that I am their representative? (I think I cannot communicate in here' I feel like talking to martians).--[[User:Dimorsitanos|Dimorsitanos]] ([[User talk:Dimorsitanos|talk]]) 22:31, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
::Just because Wikipedia has some certain policies (like the one you mention) or procedure rules, doesn't mean that anyone (user of visitor) making an ethical precautionary warning is bound by them and obliged to be aware and follow all of them before making a statement. Wikipedia policies are not god's word, neither legislated by UN legislators.--[[User:Dimorsitanos|Dimorsitanos]] ([[User talk:Dimorsitanos|talk]]) 22:47, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
:::: When you edit in Wikipedia, you are expected to observe the rules in Wikipedia. Who wrote up the rules is not relevant. Just don't bring in lawyers, please. That's not cool. --[[User:PFHLai|PFHLai]] ([[User talk:PFHLai|talk]]) 23:31, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

:::You didn't talk about German laws. But since you never mentioned which laws you '''were''' talking about, User:abf at Wikimedia Commons tried to be helpful and pointed to a German page which he thought may have been applicable. You never corrected him, or provided an alternate page describing what you actually were talking about. You made legal threats when you said that you "may hire a professional for a possible legal case". The implication that I (and probably PFHLai) took away was that the legal case would be against the Wikimedia foundation and/or the uploader for posting the picture. I admit that in retrospect your phrasing is unclear, but that's why you feel like you're talking to martians: you never clearly explain yourself, so the rest of us are left trying to read your mind. In fact, you seem opposed to clear communication, as when I point-blanked asked you to specify what particular human rights are being violated, you refused to. At this point I want to [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]], but I have a sneaking suspicion that we are being trolled. (BTW, if you are not their representatives, you may want to read up on [[Legal standing]] before you hire that lawyer.) -- [[Special:Contributions/128.104.112.113|128.104.112.113]] ([[User talk:128.104.112.113|talk]]) 22:45, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Well anyways the action captured doesn't qualify as riot. Some kids are standing right outside Komitini university campus. Presumably they are on protest or something. The police is standing by, and has just thrown a tear gas canister at them (visible is the smoke and also their irritated expression). Three of them obviously decided they have the right to stand on their grounds, one of them that he has the right to throw back o rock, while the girl at the back is kind of thinking about it.--[[User:Vanakaris|Vanakaris]] ([[User talk:Vanakaris|talk]]) 22:32, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I can't see any reason presented as to why that image should be removed. The only thing presented is a vague suggestion that there might be some possible legal action in Greece by persons unidentified under some unspecified law. If there's some particular legal or moral reason why the pic shouldn't be used, please state it (you're not the only one who feels like they're talking to Martians). Better yet, nominate the picture for deletion and cogently explain your reasons there. And bear in mind [[WP:LEGAL]], including [[WP:NPLT]]. [[User:Modest Genius|<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b>]] [[User_talk:Modest Genius|<sup>talk</sup>]] 22:44, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Dimorsitanos, the image you have a problem with is [[Commons:File:Dec2008-riot-komotini-2.jpg]]. Please post your complaints at WCommons, not here. That image is not on our MainPage.  The image on MainPage is [[:File:Dec2008-riot-komotini-2 M-cropped - ITN.jpg]], a temporary thumbnail on ITN. Please clearly explain what human rights have been violated in this image. I don't see any. I can't even see those faces that clearly. --[[User:PFHLai|PFHLai]] ([[User talk:PFHLai|talk]]) 23:36, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks PFHLai. I brought the subject here because there was a cropped picture of the same file in the main page of the english wikipedia. But since the file was modified, there isn't much to talk about in here. Notice though that I didn't ask for the file to be reduced in size but just having the faces blurred in order for the picture not to lose its encyclopeadic value. 

As for 128.... you can't assume good faith and accuse someone of trolling at the same time, so I turn the accusations back. I specified that a professional lawyer may be hired in order to offer legal advise on how to justify in legal words what I have in mind as a moral firing of negative events in an eruptive atmosphear in Greece, after rumours circulating that there may be cases of secret filing of educators that take part in protests, in order for them to face the consequencies. I did not state that I would hire the lawyer to take legal actions against wikipedia or spesific users. I made that statement because you warned me that I have to be prepared to justify an accusation of human rights violation and I responded that I might hire a professional If called to do so. So instead of misinterpretating my words, you could focus on more productive things. Just because US citizens may be safe from getting charged with accusations from a law that applies in Germany of Greece, doesn't mean they should not consider the moral duty of thinking of the harm that may be caused to another person or organization in another country. 

As for Modest, yes this is what that's all about... a vague suggestion before turning irrevocably into a real problem for the people taking part in the protests and making things more eruptive right now in Greece. I do not think that the file should be deleted. I just said that the people indicated should be protected.--[[User:Dimorsitanos|Dimorsitanos]] ([[User talk:Dimorsitanos|talk]]) 23:37, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

:{{resolved|The image on MainPage has been modified and does not pose a problem.  This issue is considered resolved. --[[User:PFHLai|PFHLai]] ([[User talk:PFHLai|talk]]) 23:45, 13 December 2008 (UTC) }}

:I apologize for the accusation of trolling. Voicing my suspicions served no useful purpose, and only served to make me look like an ass now that it has become clear that you weren't. Regarding making accusations of human rights violations, you already did so in your initial post: "There is a picture in your main page that violates human rights" - it was this statement which I was asking you to justify. The productive goal to which I applied (and with this comment still apply) myself to was to encourage you clarify and strengthen your position, so that we could resolve the situation to the satisfaction of all. In the future, when asking for someone to do something, I would strongly encourage you to be more forthcoming in why you think that that something should be done. By my reading, a number of the respondents of this discussion were not convinced that even the original picture violated human rights. I will agree with you - if the picture can be shown to violate human rights in the relevant jurisdiction, it should be removed. However, I haven't seen that evidence, and encourage you to provide it in the relevant locations (which, now that the discussion here is marked as resolved, would be [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Please_delete_older_pic_-_human_rights here]) -- [[Special:Contributions/128.104.112.113|128.104.112.113]] ([[User talk:128.104.112.113|talk]]) 00:42, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

::Apology accepted. I should probably say "Fears of possible human rights violation", but after posting the same message at many relevant pages, it was a mistake out of momentum. My wish is to avert a problem before it happens, even though greek wikipedians think that I am overreacting since such content has been circulating around the net for a long time. I believe that means with such publicity as wikipedia should be more cautious in order to prevent a negative reaction. I did take the matter up to the commons administrators, after my wish was reverted at the village pump.--[[User:Dimorsitanos|Dimorsitanos]] ([[User talk:Dimorsitanos|talk]]) 00:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)